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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 22:49
@Dr. Prog
 
Why they ought to make "melodic" (and vocally) at that old way to be great? I'm sure It's non sense. Please take a listen to this a bit just to get an image what i call the modern prog (because maybe you thought that I listen some bull-s.) http://moonjunerecords.bandcamp.com/album/am-i-walking-wrong
 
I don't think you're troll and I'm always respect your opinion but what you said about modern prog, it really sounds to me so similiar when people ask me why I think that Too Old is the best album by Jethro Tull, why I think that Shamal is the best album by GonG, why I prefer Relayer and Going For The One much more than The Yes Album and so on. I realized why they asked me that - just because these albums are recorded after 1972. And of course, because my fav masterpieces by mentioned bands is to sound pretty modern if you compare these LPs (I mean original LPs, not remastered CDs) with the stuff what the same artists were released as teens. I love so much that moody atmosphere of Trespass the original LP but I know that great atmosphere is made accidently. I agreed with your once that Nursery Cream is 80%  boring album; I will explain why. Although I bought Nursery Cream the original LP as a kid in 70s, I bought it after purchase of amazing Genesis Live (where Gabriel was recorded that definitive version of Musical Box), SEbtP, Lamb, Trick of the Tail, the albums who are just perfect, and of course then NC was boring to me (I loved For Absent Friends, though). Same thing with overrated Foxtrot - that original pressing was awfull and with the remastered version it's really fine album.


Edited by Svetonio - October 18 2013 at 23:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 22:52
The idea that 'modern prog' bands don't have good melodies is simply not true.
I can name 4 of my favorite modern bands  that are loaded with strong melodies and I'm willing to bet that the other members here can add many to that list.
IQ
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White Willow
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 23:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

There's one stumbling block for me in some of the modern prog I have listened to.   I don't generally find it very catchy or memorable.  It's as if I have to listen several times just to start 'learning' the composition and then maybe see if I like it.  There is nothing right or wrong about such an approach but it doesn't work for me personally.  I get into some classical and jazz music more easily than stuff like Deluge Grandeur.   I have listened to not only the more accessible 70s prog rock bands like Yes or Genesis but also those in the Zeuhl/ later Canterbury like Magma or National Health and I don't face this problem generally speaking in 70s prog.  Of course, it's not a fair comparison because all these are bands with relatively lasting appeal (which is the reason they are still reviewed and discussed on websites like these) whereas I listen to new prog as it comes.  But when modern prog rock bands do try to be catchy (mainly prog metal), it seems to be more in a kind of generic/cliched way that reminds me of all the cheesy pop and glam-metal music of 80s/90s that I am not er, exactly dying to hear more of.  I have noticed that a lot of people who say they like modern prog more than classic prog mention VDGG as one of their favourite classic prog rock bands.  I do find VDGG rather unmemorable, however engrossing I might find them while their music plays, so maybe this lack of memorability is a plus from a certain point of view where any music that immediately "grabs the listener by the collar" has got to be pop/commercial music and automatically bad ( I remember that Henry Plainview used to dislike catchy music).  I wonder if such kind of thinking dictates the compositional choices of some of these new prog rock bands too. 

Building a little more on that point, I search for a motif in any track of music I listen to.  If the point is to listen to the arrangements rather than the motif (because the motif by itself lacks memorability), it's not for me.  Again, it's not for me to say it's right or wrong, but about my preferences.  

It's ironic really, the reason VDGG became my favorite so quickly was because I found their melodies and motives to be so strong and memorable. Even after the first listen, they stuck with me and never left.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 23:05
I certainly cannot relate to that.  With the exception of H to He, I generally find their music dense, rambling and unmemorable.  In a similar sense, when I say Images and Words is my favourite DT album, I am informed in a slightly snobbish tone by some DT fans that that is a beginner's album while the real meat is at Metropolis 2.  But I only find Metropolis 2 unfocused and rambling (again).  I&W just fit their ideas into more compact and tight capsules, which I prefer.  If that is beginner music, then oh well whatever, I can only listen to what my heart desires and not to what would appease snobs.

Edited by rogerthat - October 18 2013 at 23:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 23:21
I love vdgg except for pawn hearts. It's a good album but I find lighthouse keepers pretty boring after such an interesting start. H to he is really strong and so is Godbluff. I really enjoy their 75-78 period in conjunction with peters solo stuff from this period. Would have been interesting if they were still a band from 1972-74
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 23:45
There weren't so many great prog debuts in early 70s. ELP's debut comes in mind as really great one, then Space Shanty, Tubular Bells, RTF's debut for ECM, Weather Report's debut... Of course there was more but for sure not so huge number of spectacular debuts as it is at the present day.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 23:47

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I certainly cannot relate to that.  With the exception of H to He, I generally find their music dense, rambling and unmemorable.  In a similar sense, when I say Images and Words is my favourite DT album, I am informed in a slightly snobbish tone by some DT fans that that is a beginner's album while the real meat is at Metropolis 2.  But I only find Metropolis 2 unfocused and rambling (again).  I&W just fit their ideas into more compact and tight capsules, which I prefer.  If that is beginner music, then oh well whatever, I can only listen to what my heart desires and not to what would appease snobs.

If it makes you feel any better, I much prefer that one to Metropolis as well. It's in my top 10 favorite albums Smile

There's nothing beginner about that album in my book at all. It's beautiful!



Edited by Neo-Romantic - October 18 2013 at 23:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 00:16
Oh I get that you do find VDGG memorable, though I don't. That is a matter of taste. But I have read some members of this forum suggest the idea that there is no reason why a piece of music should be memorable because it is only supposed to convey some emotions. That is an interesting thought but is totally alien to me. I don't know any other way of listening to music than to match onto a memorable motif. So I wondered if some modern prog rock bands also subscribe to the notion that memorability is not important.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 01:22

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Oh I get that you do find VDGG memorable, though I don't. That is a matter of taste. But I have read some members of this forum suggest the idea that there is no reason why a piece of music should be memorable because it is only supposed to convey some emotions. That is an interesting thought but is totally alien to me. I don't know any other way of listening to music than to match onto a memorable motif. So I wondered if some modern prog rock bands also subscribe to the notion that memorability is not important.
 

I can't say I relate to the mentality you mentioned seeing expressed by some other forum members either. I share your sentiments entirely on that one! An alien thought indeed. 

I'm one of those people that likes both emotion and memorability. The two need not be separated. In my mind (and heart, I guess), the two become one inseparable entity. That's the hallmark of great music to me, an abundance of each. I understand where that mentality came from, but to me it's a false dichotomy. Instead of wanting this or that, I'd rather have this and that and the other.

It's very possible that modern bands think that way, but on either side of that, I know for a fact that there are plenty that I can name off the top of my head that do not observe that "rule". Hence my earlier case for melodic prog still being created. I also believe the unmemorable, unmelodic stuff could have and most likely did exist back in the "golden age" (I don't care for this term personally) too. We probably just don't hear about it as much by comparison because those groups are not our contemporaries and probably didn't withstand the test of time like the 70s giants. Same thing with classical composers: the best and the most innovative (not always interchangeable, I must stress) get the recognition, and the ones that don't contribute anything memorable are more often than not lost to historic obscurity. Even the ones that do get remembered aren't guaranteed to be any more memorable in my book all the time. Example: One listen to The Mountain by Haken about two weeks ago, and I'm already captivated by the emotionally gripping melody and hauntingly beautiful lyrics of the last track. I haven't forgotten them at all. I sing them to myself daily. That was after one listen.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 01:35
Originally posted by Neo-Romantic Neo-Romantic wrote:

I also believe the unmemorable, unmelodic stuff could have and most likely did exist back in the "golden age" (I don't care for this term personally) too. We probably just don't hear about it as much by comparison because those groups are not our contemporaries and probably didn't withstand the test of time like the 70s giants.


I also think this is possible and said as much in the earlier post.  The bands we refer back to the 70s are the ones that have stood the test of time.  However, I remember that a year back or so there was a lot of buzz about Deluge Grander in the forum and I remember listening to it and finding it unmemorable (to me) gave up.  After reading the comments of some of those who appreciated it, I wondered if perhaps there is a section of listeners today that are looking for a certain kind of sonic experience rather than 'hummable' motifs.   And if that is the case, it is possible that some bands try to cater to that and are more involved in evoking a certain ambience than in searching for infectious hooks. 

I of course don't mean to imply all bands do this.  I loved ACT's Imaginary Friends and Last Epic albums and have waited in vain (so far) for a follow up to the relatively more middling Silence.  They can be somewhat cheesy at times but their tracks simply overflow with hooks.   I am very selective about the music that I embrace totally (and hence can't throw out lots of lots of names that I dig) but that also applies to classic prog and there's a lot of old prog albums (even the 'greats') that I couldn't care to listen to one more time.  And I also have no problems in embracing the crossover side of prog like Radiohead or Muse unlike some progheads.  It is these things that have made me wonder if perhaps memorability is itself equated to commercial from a certain point of view.   












Edited by rogerthat - October 19 2013 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 04:13
I don't know if this has been touched on but prog in the seventies was part of a movement and therefore you could follow an evolution of ideas across several bands that were in competition with each other.
If you take the last 10 years as 'modern' then this is not so apparent.
 In terms of what is on this site my favourite albums from the last 10 years are Deadwing (PT) , Aerial (Kate Bush) , Absolution (Muse) , Dreams Of Men (Pallas), The Inconsolable Secret (Glass Hammer) and Purgatorio (Tangerine Dream). These are bands/artists stretching across different sub genres and could hardly just be bundled together as 'prog'. This makes any discussion for me impossible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 04:19
^^^  I wonder if that was the case in the 70s too but the greater awareness about music by a wide variety of artists today makes the divergence more apparent.  I don't know what Can could have had in common with Camel or Magma with Strawbs.  I am not even accounting for the likes of Art Bears or Henry Cow or the Berlin school of electronic music.  It seems to me that in the 70s, symph prog was taken as the archetype of prog in general but in hindsight that may not necessarily be true and there were many bands following an approach divergent from symph prog.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 08:52
Starlook i`m of the old watcher of the skies. `70`s progressive music  connoisseur. but i`ve gotten a amazing listening for `80`s prog rock. musicians too. the tangent, spock`s beard,flower kings,iq, marillion,fish, po90d,
transatlantic etc. you can find great prog music everywhere. StarClapLOLLOL not OuchCry. where see as clowns from those whom don`t listen to PROG ROCK!!!!!.
 
 
 
 
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Keep Calm And Listen To The Music…
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 09:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^  I wonder if that was the case in the 70s too but the greater awareness about music by a wide variety of artists today makes the divergence more apparent.  I don't know what Can could have had in common with Camel or Magma with Strawbs.  I am not even accounting for the likes of Art Bears or Henry Cow or the Berlin school of electronic music.  It seems to me that in 70s, symph prog was taken as the archetype of prog in general  but in hindsight that may not necessarily be true and there were many bands following an approach divergent from symph prog.  
Yes, Symphonic Rock was an archetype of prog in general.
Of course, I have in mind that British progressive rock movement.
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - October 19 2013 at 09:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 15:43
I don't think I've heard a marillion song that I even liked. I think the only way I'd really like a band forming after 1975 would be if all composing members didn't care for hardly any music post 1983. What are the chances of that? Lol. Any music with a metal influence I can't take seriously

Edited by dr prog - October 19 2013 at 15:50
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 19:54
I kind of agree. I always try to find new progbands that are active today though, and there are a few I really like, Änglagård being the prime example. I feel they somewhat capture the mood of the mammoths of prog from the 70s (which probably always will be my music of choice) While still having a very unique sound. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 23:14
I want to find a prog band with zero metal, punk and hip hop influence who don't sound like a copy of one of the old prog bands but who sound like a band from that era

Edited by dr prog - October 19 2013 at 23:32
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 23:20
Thinking Plague
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Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2013 at 00:09
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Thinking Plague

Good call.  I'd also suggest Anekdoten & Devil Doll.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2013 at 09:39
Discipline too for sure. I'm also going to recommend iamthemorning. Although they may not sound much like the old stuff, there's no metal, and their debut does a wonderful job of demonstrating the ability to cover new ground in a pleasantly accessible yet emotionally interesting manner. No metal influence there either.
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