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Artists who are more influential than popular

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richardh View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 18 2013 at 01:41
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis

Many fans of electronic music I've met can't get into TD because their music is either too closely rooted in progressive/psychedelic rock and 20th century classical, or too technologically primitive.

Perhaps you need to point them in the direction of Poland or Kyoto or other later releases even? . I'm not a fan of their earlier stuff (pre Ricochet) either.


Edited by richardh - November 18 2013 at 01:42
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AndreaStagni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndreaStagni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 06:35
In my opinion It Bites (in their original lineup) is one of those.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 12:47

This is a very tough subject, as it would be much easier to say that different things happened in different places that made it more valuable and interesting all the while.

I'm of the opinion that English Film and Theater, was very important and influential between 1955 and 1965 and that it eventually took form in music. After this, I would say American Film was an influence. All of these can find threads in the wording and feelings, and even influence in the music itself.

I would think that France was pretty independent, but more open to weirdness than most folks around us. I don't think that a Heldon would have gotten released in London, because of its hardcore approach to music, which is something that Melody Maker and other magazines in London used to trash so well, including Tangerine Dream, and any bands that did not suit their definition of rock/pop/blues in music!

One other thread that runs through and is still ignored for the most part, is that the beginning of Pink Floyd and Soft Machine are tied to a house where many dignitaries lived for a while and shared more than just food and shelter. It also included various actors and actresses. And while there is a taboo about sex, there is no secret that one was gay, the other was picking up boys, and one other was making sure he scored on all the ladies and the wives! Both of these bands, and the following "Canterbury" design, was quite open musically in the style that this all came from. It's called "beat poetry" and folks like Robert Wyatt still live by it, regardless of how weird and different it is! Daevid Allen is the Ken Kesey of rock (progressive) music!

It's too easy for us to think that one is more influential than the other, but I sincerely do not think that anyone was more important in terms of lyrics, than Bob Dylan, and I find it strange that he was dis-regarded, specially when so many folks went out of their way to show this to the whole world. He is now accepted, but the influence is more on the lyrical side than musical side and it is "hidden", so to speak.

Of the less known variety, I would say Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator, who are NOW, revered, but weren't in the early days, and I can tell you that for anyone around Southern California I have ever heard, I can count on one finger how many folks played his music, and he was my roomate at the time and continued to play his work even after I was gone. And I have a recording of one of the other guys on the station saying it was weird, but getting better about the album "Still Life" ... which kinda tells you how "still" their life was already centered around hit radio and top ten ... and this was a number one FM station!

The LA area, had its "big names", but of the "underground", I would say that the best influence of all was the "LA FREE PRESS" who was always given credit for being a troublemaker, but in the end, they were the ones that brought you history, when recognized a few years later! They were single handedly responsible for Frank Zappa's survival for some time until he finally hit the big time a bit later. We're talking 1968/1969 and 1970. Likewise the other wordsmiths at the time, would be the Firesign Theater in that area with the clever wording and well designed stuff satirising radio and television. They never got the credit they probably should have, but comedy is not appreciated in the "progressive" music circles, and The Goons were a huge influence on the Beatles, which you can not enjoy or appreciate until you listen to the 7 Beatles Christmas shows, and later them all having fun with Spike Milligan and Peter Sellers, in various affairs.

The Firesign Theater, in LA, if it can be said, became a sort of "symbol" for what was hip and cool and neat, and unffortunately the music for the housewives took over by the new owners of the FM stations that all sold out to the huge conglomerates, which made the study of "influence" a lot more difficult.

I can not, speak fluently the language of New York. So far, the only book I have read that is really with it, and more than clear about it's scene, is the one by Patti Smith, that you FINALLY, get the feeling that you were there! As much of the New York writers as I have read from the 1950's and 1960's, none of them are as valuable, as the bullsh*t that Andy Warhol became. And yet, you can look at Lou Reed, John Cale, and many other musicians as being influential in NY, but none of us has ever spent enough time finding out what all the bruhaha was about. In many ways, some movies tell an interesting story that we have a hard time seeing, and can not find (it's a movie?), but the similarities are still there. Hard living, etc etc.

Lastly, a lot of folks dismiss the strength and work of a lot of literature and how it affected things. If you EVER have a chance to see the film "The Trip" about Ken Kesey, you will see a very nice wonderful quote towards the end ... that is the most important part of it all and defines the difference between an "artist" and "everyone else".

It says (paraphrased) ... "... in the end, we were afraid, of experience, and learning! It wasn't the drugs."

And guess what most bands and crappy music ended up stuck on? Not the value, but the crap!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 14:28
Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis

Many fans of electronic music I've met can't get into TD because their music is either too closely rooted in progressive/psychedelic rock and 20th century classical, or too technologically primitive.

Perhaps you need to point them in the direction of Poland or Kyoto or other later releases even? . I'm not a fan of their earlier stuff (pre Ricochet) either.


Thing is, I find TD's 1980s output to sound more dated than their 1970s records for some reason. Of course this is more a matter of personal comfort zones than anything else, and they do seem to have regularly modernized their sound on a regular basis. It's just that I think Poland's sound screams "1980s" in a way Ricochet's doesn't scream "1970s" loudly.

Also, as usual moshkito's post about how the innovations in music and how they fit into the greater cultural context of its day - this time concerning the people who were influential on the extra-musical factors behind prog history - is well worth the time reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 18:28
Originally posted by dr wu23

Originally posted by Dean

I'd throw Jeff Beck into the mix even though he's not widely influential or popular by the standards of many others that will be mentioned here, he is often regarded as the guitarists' guitarist and that counts for something.
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My friend Bill has been saying that for years but then he's a huge Jeff Beck fan.

I never really understood the guitar hero worship for Jeff Beck, not into fusion so his most well known 70's work doesn't interest me...then I saw this a few months ago and was really impressed...certainly the coolest cover of A Day in the Life I've ever heard Clap

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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 01:25
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis

Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis

Many fans of electronic music I've met can't get into TD because their music is either too closely rooted in progressive/psychedelic rock and 20th century classical, or too technologically primitive.

Perhaps you need to point them in the direction of Poland or Kyoto or other later releases even? . I'm not a fan of their earlier stuff (pre Ricochet) either.


Thing is, I find TD's 1980s output to sound more dated than their 1970s records for some reason. Of course this is more a matter of personal comfort zones than anything else, and they do seem to have regularly modernized their sound on a regular basis. It's just that I think Poland's sound screams "1980s" in a way Ricochet's doesn't scream "1970s" loudly.

Also, as usual moshkito's post about how the innovations in music and how they fit into the greater cultural context of its day - this time concerning the people who were influential on the extra-musical factors behind prog history - is well worth the time reading.

Ok I seeSmile To me anything with Mellotrons sounds dated but actually that isn't a 'problem' as I see it. I also like the retro approach TD have taken on recent albums.

Yep Moshkito can be very good to read when he isn't talking down to peopleWink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 09:26
...Also, as usual moshkito's post about how the innovations in music and how they fit into the greater cultural context of its day - this time concerning the people who were influential on the extra-musical factors behind prog history - is well worth the time reading.
 
Thanks a bunch. I try my best, but this is one area that's really hard to discuss in a pop music board, when folks do not go to movies, theater, concerts (except their favorite beat (off?), or have any inkling that there are many other arts out there other than American Idol or English Hero or Italian Goon!
 
...
Yep Moshkito can be very good to read when he isn't talking down to peopleWink
 
I only like to kick the high heels and watch them fall. It's lots of fun! And a great laugh. On top of it I learned it from Monty Python and the high kicking antics which were perfect for that! Don't blame me. Blame them boogers!
 
If they were quoting Shakespeare I probably wouldn't care. But if they are quoting the telephone book or the top ten list, then yeah ... it's fun!
 
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Edited by moshkito - November 19 2013 at 09:27
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Glimmung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2013 at 19:12
Magma!!!!! They spawned an entire genre. Not to mention most of the bands that formed in their wake are almost all excellent.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2013 at 21:36
Originally posted by aginor

Arthur Brown, he influenced Alice Cooper and Peter Gabriel to do theatrics on stage, there have a foot in the invention of shock rock,

Excellent!  I was going to suggest Alice Cooper myself....I saw his "School's Out" Chicago show in Chicago, 28 July, 1972 with Captain Beyond opening the show!  The theatrics employed were amazing, and, for that era, a bit shocking (Alice hanging himself onstage). 

Actually, by the OP's criteria, Alice might not count, as they were hugely popular and financially successful.  

In the USA, the band MC5 is credited as influencing many heavy metal, punk and hard rock acts.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2013 at 21:51
Jade Warrior is often cited for influence but was only barely a cult group

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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2013 at 15:51
Originally posted by cstack3

Originally posted by aginor

Arthur Brown, he influenced Alice Cooper and Peter Gabriel to do theatrics on stage, there have a foot in the invention of shock rock,

Excellent!  I was going to suggest Alice Cooper myself....I saw his "School's Out" Chicago show in Chicago, 28 July, 1972 with Captain Beyond opening the show!  The theatrics employed were amazing, and, for that era, a bit shocking (Alice hanging himself onstage). 
...
 
I am not sure that a song that got your rox going, and spoke for all the things you did not like in your high school is a good choice for this. Even I, bought the album for it! AND I was already out of high school, but the song spoke for a voice that I still had and some of the sad/disgusting things that happened to me in high school, with teachers that are better fit to be garbage collectors, than they are instructors for children!
 
Shock rock was around for a lot longer, and even Elvis was a serious problem. The TV set would NEVER shoot or film anything from his waste on down, because it was considered lewd. And of course, the movies took that and sensationalized it even more, until it got to the 60's and we didn't care anymore, and saw many musicians do a lot more than just swing their butt! And women, too!
 
I like to say that "shock" has been a part of theater and film for hundreds of years. And of course, there is no better "shock" than Orson Welles, that got a whole country scared poopless in America! That ought to tell you how intelligently gullible the majority of the audience really was and is capable of being, which STILL is an issue today!
 
But hidden artists, or those who were not quite known, I do think that we have to go back the the beginning of the century to give you a good description, but not mentioning the film maker that aimed a gun at your face in the film and shot ... and half the audience screamed and walked out ... means you have no idea!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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