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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2023 at 12:07
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Have you been digging Direct Cutting recordings, Catcher?
Are you referring to DMM (Direct Metal Mastering)? If so I have many that are cut this way, the main drawback is the low end can suffer slightly or they can sound a bit bright. But if done right sound very good. Since they are cut direct to a copper plate you skip one of the steps so you can get a version with little to zero surface noise.

No, what I mean is the recording technique which also has been called "direct-to-disc". 
A quote from Wikipedia to describe it:

"Direct-to-disc recording refers to sound recording methods that bypass the use of magnetic tape recording and record audio directly onto analog disc masters."
...........
"To make a direct-to-disc recording, musicians would typically play one 15-minute "live" set in a recording studio per LP side using professional audio equipment. The recording was made without multitrack recording and without overdubs. The performance was carefully engineered and mixed live in stereophonic sound. During the performance, the analog disc cutting head engages the master lacquer from which sides of an LP record are ultimately derived and is not stopped until the entire side is complete."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-to-disc_recording)

Ahh, yea that's different. Regarding newer-ish recordings this method is not common at all. You find this in older like orchestral/classical music where the engineer was in the studio and had a cutting lathe there as well. Everything is done on the fly, it's a one take deal. Anything being done like that today is probably some very small 2-3 pc jazz ensembles and probably nothing we here would be interested in.
Any mistake means you have to start all over with a new lacquer, that would be very expensive.

I suspect many 78s back in the 30-40s were done like this before the use of tape as a recording method.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2023 at 12:18
Like this one.
I have it but can't remember the edition number




Edited by JD - February 28 2023 at 12:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2023 at 15:35
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Like this one.
I have it but can't remember the edition number


I would not mind hearing one of those Berliner D2D recordings, I'm not into classical/chamber music but I bet they sound fantastic. Looks like they are cut at 45RPM, limited editions based on the video, probably run a pretty penny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2023 at 15:51
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Have you been digging Direct Cutting recordings, Catcher?
Are you referring to DMM (Direct Metal Mastering)? If so I have many that are cut this way, the main drawback is the low end can suffer slightly or they can sound a bit bright. But if done right sound very good. Since they are cut direct to a copper plate you skip one of the steps so you can get a version with little to zero surface noise.

No, what I mean is the recording technique which also has been called "direct-to-disc". 
A quote from Wikipedia to describe it:

"Direct-to-disc recording refers to sound recording methods that bypass the use of magnetic tape recording and record audio directly onto analog disc masters."
...........
"To make a direct-to-disc recording, musicians would typically play one 15-minute "live" set in a recording studio per LP side using professional audio equipment. The recording was made without multitrack recording and without overdubs. The performance was carefully engineered and mixed live in stereophonic sound. During the performance, the analog disc cutting head engages the master lacquer from which sides of an LP record are ultimately derived and is not stopped until the entire side is complete."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-to-disc_recording)

Ahh, yea that's different. Regarding newer-ish recordings this method is not common at all. You find this in older like orchestral/classical music where the engineer was in the studio and had a cutting lathe there as well. Everything is done on the fly, it's a one take deal. Anything being done like that today is probably some very small 2-3 pc jazz ensembles and probably nothing we here would be interested in.
Any mistake means you have to start all over with a new lacquer, that would be very expensive.

I suspect many 78s back in the 30-40s were done like this before the use of tape as a recording method.

I know it only from a number of records made in the second half of the '70s, where the music is nothing special, but the sound quality can be exceptionally good - like for instance in those four records I've listed in my mainstream Jazz list (page 274 in this thread and in my new Jazz thread).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2023 at 16:04

       Here they're again:

       Frank Strozier Quintet  (USA)        What's Goin' On                   (Direct Cutting, SteepleChase,   (1978)

                       1978 DK, 115g, a. 2000, 250)

Direct Cutting

The Three  (USA?)                         (Take 2)            (East Wind 1., 1976 J, 125g, a. 2004, 300)   (1976)

The Pentagon  (USA)                     The Pentagon   (East Wind 2., 1976 J, 120g, a. 1996, 350)  (1976)

The L.A.4  (USA, BRA)                  Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte                 (East Wind 3.,   (1977)

                                                                                                         1977 J, 115g, a. 1995, 400)  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2023 at 15:59
I'm embarrassed that I'm just finding this out. Rudy Van Gelder, monster engineer that recorded and mixed hundreds of jazz albums in the 50's and beyond, had this to say about vinyl, in Audio magazine, 1995. Apparently he was positive about the switch from analog to digital.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

So what do you think about his opinion, that the vinyl format "was never any good"?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2023 at 16:46
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I'm embarrassed that I'm just finding this out. Rudy Van Gelder, monster engineer that recorded and mixed hundreds of jazz albums in the 50's and beyond, had this to say about vinyl, in Audio magazine, 1995. Apparently he was positive about the switch from analog to digital.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

So what do you think about his opinion, that the vinyl format "was never any good"?
Well perhaps NEVER any good is a bit of a stretch, but I know the point he's trying to make.
In a word...FRICTION. By the very nature of the physics involved it inherently causes distortion. What two things  rubbing against one another wouldn't ? And it's also fair to say many of the hands that touch a recording can affect it positively or not. The whole digital thing, it's a little like 4K and now 8K TV. At what point does the limitations of the human organic system make such technology unimportant ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 04:48
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I'm embarrassed that I'm just finding this out. Rudy Van Gelder, monster engineer that recorded and mixed hundreds of jazz albums in the 50's and beyond, had this to say about vinyl, in Audio magazine, 1995. Apparently he was positive about the switch from analog to digital.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

So what do you think about his opinion, that the vinyl format "was never any good"?

Well, in short, sonicly speaking and as I see it of the end results, a pure analog production is in general much much better than 
a digital one - at least when talking about the standard CD format.


Edited by David_D - March 02 2023 at 09:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IncogNeato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 07:14
Quote And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."


This. This 1000%.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 12:02
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I'm embarrassed that I'm just finding this out. Rudy Van Gelder, monster engineer that recorded and mixed hundreds of jazz albums in the 50's and beyond, had this to say about vinyl, in Audio magazine, 1995. Apparently he was positive about the switch from analog to digital.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

So what do you think about his opinion, that the vinyl format "was never any good"?

This is a common statement from many in the music industry when it came to digital. The fact remains that digital should be the best way to record something in the studio, as a matter of fact I would say at least 85% of all studio recordings are digital. As well what we hear afterwards is a total dogs breakfast when it comes to digital and the media of choice, the CD. 

For sure the downstream mastering and engineer is the problem.

As well I have read interviews and YouTube videos where mastering engineers like Bernie Grundman will state that analog recording is the best sounding period. And he has a much longer history that RVG does.

When RVG was cutting all those classic BlueNote records back in the late 50s to 60s, his main problem with vinyl was that the playback equipment from that era could not handle the dynamics and frequency of the recordings. Tonearms and cartridges could not play some of that music so he had to back off on the bass as well push treble some, if not needles were jumping out of the grooves.

Today's turntable technology and cartridge designs are light years better and can easily handle what he recorded, this is why you now have Kevin Gray remastering all the BlueNote catalog from the original tapes and not having to cut any low end, he has gone on record saying he is able to cut what is actually on the tape, so what we now hear is much closer to what RVG was recording in studio.

As far as vinyl was never any good is clearly an embellished comment IMO, if it was it would have fully disappeared in 1985....It is the one media that can handle more frequency than we can actually hear, low end down to 7Hz and upper end to over 50KHz, the CD cannot do this. That's all that needs to be said...buy and listen to what you like. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 12:07
What is MORE embarrassing is that yesterday this album turned 50 yrs old. And the entire social media world including the NYT posted articles about the greatest rock/prog/psych album ever created and this site not a flicker of fanfare I noticed......I played each of my versions yesterday.
I own an OG UK 5th press from 1975, a CD remaster from 1985, the 2003 30th Anniversary cut by Doug Sax and Kevin Gray from original masters and the 2016 Bernie Grundman cut from digital masters.  

Happy Birthday Dark Side Of the Moon!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 12:47
Originally posted by IncogNeato IncogNeato wrote:

Quote And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."


This. This 1000%.

But the CD is a lossless media, redbook dictates it must be downsampled from say the original 24 or 32 bit recording to 16bit. You can take a 24 bit recording and cut that directly to vinyl and get more than 20Hz to 20kHz on the vinyl.....what you sacrifice with vinyl is dynamic range.
The CD is about 90dB, 24 bit files are around 120dB (which is stupid) and the LP is about 78-80dB. The LP provides a more natural way of hearing sounds. The 120dB is like the difference between silence and standing next to a jet engine, nobody hears like that. The description of digital being "clinical" sounding has always been accurate.
But 100% agree, the mastering or mixing engineer can f**k up a recording very easily.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 13:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

What is MORE embarrassing is that yesterday this album turned 50 yrs old. And the entire social media world including the NYT posted articles about the greatest rock/prog/psych album ever created and this site not a flicker of fanfare I noticed......I played each of my versions yesterday.
I own an OG UK 5th press from 1975, a CD remaster from 1985, the 2003 30th Anniversary cut by Doug Sax and Kevin Gray from original masters and the 2016 Bernie Grundman cut from digital masters.  

Happy Birthday Dark Side Of the Moon!!


Maybe because the date is made up, since it varies depending on location?

United States: March 1, 1973
Japan: March 10, 1973
United Kingdom: March 24, 1973
Australia: March 29, 1973
Netherlands: March 24, 1973

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 13:51
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

What is MORE embarrassing is that yesterday this album turned 50 yrs old. And the entire social media world including the NYT posted articles about the greatest rock/prog/psych album ever created and this site not a flicker of fanfare I noticed......I played each of my versions yesterday.
I own an OG UK 5th press from 1975, a CD remaster from 1985, the 2003 30th Anniversary cut by Doug Sax and Kevin Gray from original masters and the 2016 Bernie Grundman cut from digital masters.  

Happy Birthday Dark Side Of the Moon!!


Maybe because the date is made up, since it varies depending on location?

United States: March 1, 1973
Japan: March 10, 1973
United Kingdom: March 24, 1973
Australia: March 29, 1973
Netherlands: March 24, 1973

The official release date is March 1, 1973 by Harvest/Capitol Records. Other countries generally have different release dates due to when plates arrive to a pressing plant, so it's logistics. Maybe it did not appear in music stores in the Netherlands till March 24, but the album was released on March 1st.

So then PA should have several "birthday" celebration posts for this album, which again I doubt happens....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gentle and Giant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 14:00
I find all this discussion fascinating thank you. A question if I may. I've come across vinyl rips over the years and they are generally 24bit/96khz or 24bit/192khz. Why is this? From my limited understanding this would be massive overkill for a vinyl>digital conversion. Or am I totally wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 14:33
Dang.....RIP Mr Shorter Cry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 14:37
Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I find all this discussion fascinating thank you. A question if I may. I've come across vinyl rips over the years and they are generally 24bit/96khz or 24bit/192khz. Why is this? From my limited understanding this would be massive overkill for a vinyl>digital conversion. Or am I totally wrong?

Nope, that should be the standard if you are going to rip the vinyl. This way you are capturing everything that is on the record. Clearly 24 bit files take up a lot of HDD space so many would save as a mp3 file. Or for example if you wanted to burn it to a CD then your software would have to downsample the 24 bit file to 16bit/44.1khz, so it would be a lossy file.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 15:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

What is MORE embarrassing is that yesterday this album turned 50 yrs old. And the entire social media world including the NYT posted articles about the greatest rock/prog/psych album ever created and this site not a flicker of fanfare I noticed......I played each of my versions yesterday.
I own an OG UK 5th press from 1975, a CD remaster from 1985, the 2003 30th Anniversary cut by Doug Sax and Kevin Gray from original masters and the 2016 Bernie Grundman cut from digital masters.  

Happy Birthday Dark Side Of the Moon!!

I listened to it a short while ago...BUT to celebrate it today, I had a good look at all the details of my beautiful copy of the US 1st press (LA, Interpak). Tongue


Edited by David_D - March 02 2023 at 15:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2023 at 15:07
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Dang.....RIP Mr Shorter Cry

RIP, Wayne.

Would love to hear Wayne in surround sound!
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