Van or Von?? |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 19675 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 12:25 | |||
If the "other Belgian' is Moogtron, he's actually Dutch if memory srves... but choose to mive in a better land (beer most likely) I betcha that most Belgians are not aware of Ludwig's father and grandfather origins I certainly wasn't last week... Edited by Sean Trane - January 20 2014 at 12:27 |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 08:51 | |||
Yes! Sorry about that
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24011 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 08:44 | |||
Some Dutch people, even a PA collab, may not agree with this. Even the variety "van de(r) Graaff" occurs now and then. |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:51 | |||
Hmmm I never had this problem when I changed my Facebook name to Aladdin von Pottenheim (notice the small v in there).
The von did have it's upsides though. Shortly after having changed my name, I was bombed with mails from Russia and Ukraine, where young women, who all seemed to be looking for sex(Yay!), clearly wanted me badly. My first reaction though was that they'd read the Aladdin part of the name and thought to themselves: 'Oy isn't that the guy with the lamp and the cute blue hovering dude?' and then later on I remembered just how many lords and counts who tend to have a 'von' snuck in somewhere in their name.... Either way, I never befriended any of those girls - I was a little worried about them turning out to be some old guy from Stockholm that for some reason just had a thing for my, at the time, rainbow-coloured hair due.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4515 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:48 | |||
That other Belgian here is too fast for me PS on topic. I always thought it was Von Beethoven as I was not aware of his Flemish origins. Edited by Bonnek - January 20 2014 at 06:51 |
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4515 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:47 | |||
The official rule (for the Netherlands at least) is that you don't use capitals is the first name is given (or abbreviated). So: mister Robert van de Graaf mister R. van de Graaff If however the first name is not provided then the first letter of the family name prefixes must be capitalized. Hence: mister Van de Graaff So if you've seen it as Robert Van de Graaff then he probably forgot how to spell his own name from being American for too long. PS. I had to correct the above 3 times as I kept spelling Van de Graaf with one f. 2 ff's just doesn't make much sense at all in modern Dutch! |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:45 | |||
Dutchmen would say: Robert van de Graaff, but: mr. Van de Graaff, so when the first name isn't being used, you capitalize the V Flemish people would always capitalize the V, in all circumstances But both the Dutch and the Flemings wouldn't capitalize the d. Easy does it |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:50 | |||
The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage. Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.
Here we regard VdGG as a whole band name rather than a personal name so would no more file them under "G" than we would Pink Floyd under "F" or Jethro Tull under "T" (though over the years many have tried) ... or perhaps Porcupine Tree under "T" or King Crimson under "C". Luckily we don't have to worry about Manfred Mann.
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What?
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24011 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:28 | |||
According to Dutch lexicographical logic, van der Aat's phone # is to be fount on one of the first pages of the phonebook. Prepositions and articles have a minor influence on the alphabetical order. That's why I expected to find Van der Graaf Generator in the company of Genesis, Gentle Giant and Gnidrolog here on PA, years ago. Edited by someone_else - January 20 2014 at 05:30 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:01 | |||
At first I thought there was some subtle nuance of Flemish I was missing here, but if anyone had actually looked at Ludwig's signature: You can see that he uses an upper case "V" himself (though quite how that scribbled first word is "Ludwig" defeats me), however in this letter you can see he's invented a middle-case "v" And in others it's closer to a lower-case "v" - without going into an "scientific" investigation I suspect it changed over time to be less "Belgian" and more "Austrian". Either way, filling him under "V" is like filing The Beatles under "T" isn't it? Sure you can do it, but it's not particularly helpful. |
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What?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:41 | |||
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 20 2014 at 04:51 |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 19675 |
Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:16 | |||
One of the most amazing read in the Netherlands is the Amsterdam phonebook, where you'd have to look afor Ludwig's phone # under B (for Beethoven, van) instead of V (for Van B...) And for a colleague's name van der Aat, I'd probably have to look under the lletter A Edited by Sean Trane - January 20 2014 at 04:22 |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: January 19 2014 at 18:11 | |||
No. Everybody everywhere has always written VAN. I don't know where this new "von" thing came from. Probably from a prog website or something .
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: January 19 2014 at 13:49 | |||
Lodewijk, yes! Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post. What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version... So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! |
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 24 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8115 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 20:32 | |||
How about "Furtwangler's Van Beethoven"? That's the real thing.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 19:31 | |||
I've always known it to be 'Von'.
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:54 | |||
It's Vaughn. Ludwig Vaughn Beethoven. Or "L'Vaughn" for short.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 19675 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:34 | |||
Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines) had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v") but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 08:46 | |||
Great!
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24011 |
Posted: January 18 2014 at 05:49 | |||
His old man used to frequent the beer gardens on a regular base. |
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