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Why do so many bands do just one double album?!

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Kati View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 00:04
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:


Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

 Everyone knows you were being sarcastic, but if you can no longer be good at it, don't. (ELP take note) You've just honed in on the football comment as a a transparent diversion technique i.e. I've called you out for being credulous and permanently in thrall to your fave musicians and you have responded with precisely squat. There's also your usual helpining of grammatical pedantry which is just a waste of everyone's time and energy. I might start a petition to get you reinstated as an Admin, you were a damn site better value then.

........................
Another incentive for everyone in having you reinstated as an Admin: you would post less, especially kneejerk childish crap like the above. Grow up, you've got nothing hippy...

 
Agreed, but for the sake of this forum i think you shouldn't waste your time anymore and get back to what the thread title suggests.
 


Cooee!!!! Awwwww    leave Dean alone, yes he might be uber grumpy at times but I love his input and knowledge on our forum topics. Heck I get it wrong at times and Dean is the first person to point that out leave my favorite Grumpy number one alone because he certainly adds so much more value, knowledge and interest to our forum topics. huge hug to all

P.S. I love football, this pic attached is me at the Fifa Worls Cup 2010 in Cape Town South Africa supporting my favorite team    

Supporting the Dutch!
I'm Dutch!
So you're supportering me! Big smile
Okay, so far for this pseudo-Socratic syllogism LOL but you do have a good taste, Kati Clap 
As well as for supporting Dean, whom I'm happy to see on this site.
We all have our grumpy days, and that's the truth


Oh wow Moogtron, you are Dutch? Ha! Love that! I lived in Holland, in Breda for 8 years myself, during van Basten and Frank Rijkaard era hehehe best times really
Dean always has a go at me (might be due to the fact that I write what I am thinking at the time without having done any research about the the topic tho;) but I pay no attention at that, he is a teddy bear really a very grumpy one I must add
When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moogtron III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 03:31
Yes, I'm Dutch, I'm from Rotterdam, living in Belgium now for 10 years for my job; just moved to Turnhout which is not far from Breda
The Van Basten/Rijkaard/Gullit days were magic days. 
I'm lucky now for the next World Cup to have two favorite teams: the Dutch (from my country of birth) and the Belgians (from my country of residence).

BTW I've been to some South-African stadiums too a few years ago, but too late for the World Cup matches. 
South-African people were proud to show me their stadiums though.
Haven't been to the Cape but to the Jo'burg area. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 05:51
Originally posted by Prog 74 Prog 74 wrote:

The band themselves admitted that they didn't quite have enough material to make it a double album so they went to the vaults and filled the album with some unreleased tracks.  Tracks that weren't good enough to be on previous albums. 

That wouldn't be *gasp* filler, now would it? Shocked Shocked 

I thought that wasn't supposed to exist.


Edited by Logos - March 19 2014 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 05:58
Originally posted by Logos Logos wrote:

Originally posted by Prog 74 Prog 74 wrote:

The band themselves admitted that they didn't quite have enough material to make it a double album so they went to the vaults and filled the album with some unreleased tracks.  Tracks that weren't good enough to be on previous albums. 

That wouldn't be *gasp* filler, now would it? Shocked Shocked 

I thought that wasn't supposed to exist.
Of course it does. If the band admits it no one can deny it. I do not claim that filler tracks do not exist on some albums, I am saying that all the tracks that people call filler are not filler tracks.

All those track you don't like or don't prefer or don't think are very good or that are subjectively mediocre are not "filler".




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 06:08
Originally posted by Logos Logos wrote:

That wouldn't be *gasp* filler, now would it? Shocked Shocked 
I thought that wasn't supposed to exist.

Bands record many cuts, some make it to an album and some don't.   The songs that don't make it may be rejects, unwanted children, or just not quite right for a particular record, but whether those songs can be called filler is a judgment call.   But as we all know from the extras on the Tull reissues, sometimes you wish they'd put more of that stuff on the original and left some other stuff off.   Filler is in the eye of the beholder and easy to claim after the fact, but like with film, sometimes the Director's Cut is better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 06:30
^ no-one is suggesting that an artist would deliberately record bad music and yes of course, you can find anecdotal evidence that some people find the least popular tracks on any given album to be their own favourite etc  All I'm saying is that musicians are just like the rest of us: deeply flawed humans who will sometimes release material that they know in their hearts maybe wasn't up to their usual standards. To deny that such a possibility exists is the worst kind of delusional fanboy thinking I can imagine. I accept that no-one's subjective appraisal of any double album has any bearing on this and It doesn't make such material filler or padding but does at least acknowledge we are far too credulous and in thrall to our heroes at times in discussions like these.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 06:43
Oh it exists alright, it's just so often a matter of context as to what is deemed padding or filler.   There isn't a Beatles album before Revolver that does not have at least some substandard work relative to the rest of the issue IMO.   In the Beatles case, they just recorded constantly, laying down any new cohesive song they'd written (with George Martin's help).   The rest was editing, and considering George Harrison's increasing desire to have his songs featured more than twice per album, it was a tightly run ship no doubt.   This was good quality control but we later see they all had much more to offer.  





Edited by Atavachron - March 19 2014 at 06:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 07:48
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ no-one is suggesting that an artist would deliberately record bad music and yes of course, you can find anecdotal evidence that some people find the least popular tracks on any given album to be their own favourite etc  All I'm saying is that musicians are just like the rest of us: deeply flawed humans who will sometimes release material that they know in their hearts maybe wasn't up to their usual standards. To deny that such a possibility exists is the worst kind of delusional fanboy thinking I can imagine. I accept that no-one's subjective appraisal of any double album has any bearing on this and It doesn't make such material filler or padding but does at least acknowledge we are far too credulous and in thrall to our heroes at times in discussions like these.
I fail to see where anyone has shown fanboi tendencies, or demonstrated that they are in the thrall of any so-called heroes. No one has said that double albums are all golden and flawless. I responded to the claim that "Seems like every double album has some padding." and in the subsequent linear exchange of posts on that subject you leapt down my throat. Generalisations are never an accurate picture, especially in an area that has so few examples to choose from, but padding and filler implies deliberate intent, mediocre and weak does not.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 08:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ no-one is suggesting that an artist would deliberately record bad music and yes of course, you can find anecdotal evidence that some people find the least popular tracks on any given album to be their own favourite etc  All I'm saying is that musicians are just like the rest of us: deeply flawed humans who will sometimes release material that they know in their hearts maybe wasn't up to their usual standards. To deny that such a possibility exists is the worst kind of delusional fanboy thinking I can imagine. I accept that no-one's subjective appraisal of any double album has any bearing on this and It doesn't make such material filler or padding but does at least acknowledge we are far too credulous and in thrall to our heroes at times in discussions like these.
I fail to see where anyone has shown fanboi tendencies, or demonstrated that they are in the thrall of any so-called heroes. No one has said that double albums are all golden and flawless. I responded to the claim that "Seems like every double album has some padding." and in the subsequent linear exchange of posts on that subject you leapt down my throat. Generalisations are never an accurate picture, especially in an area that has so few examples to choose from, but padding and filler implies deliberate intent, mediocre and weak does not.


So no musician you like has ever released any material which contains music they know is of an inferior standard to their usual work? I consider a No to that question certainly reeks of fanboyism frankly. (yet again it's my inflammatory phraseology that lights your tinderbox fuse e.g is credulous less contentious?) The material's lack of quality is not deliberate of course, but in most unlitigated cases it's usually released with the artist's express consent so I'm guessing if it's on the shelf they mean it man. If the material's lack of quality were deliberate then we encounter what for you is clearly the unthinkable doomsday scenario: I like music that the artist knew was s.h.i.t. ergo I have been duped and the foundation of my tastes has been irredeemably undermined forever. You're a very intelligent man and  although i don't expect you to agree with me I cannot understand why you fail to see the validity of this perspective. I don't believe I Ieapt down your throat either but then I'm Scottish, and even Hadrian called in the builders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Robson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 09:11
^An intelligent, clever, smart man can also have bad taste. This applies to any artist too (never enjoyed Picasso's modern phase of his carreer). Cubism is for me of bad taste. OK, it's again a subjective opinion, like saying the double albums are all "originalissimos" ones.

Edited by Rick Robson - March 19 2014 at 09:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 09:41
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ no-one is suggesting that an artist would deliberately record bad music and yes of course, you can find anecdotal evidence that some people find the least popular tracks on any given album to be their own favourite etc  All I'm saying is that musicians are just like the rest of us: deeply flawed humans who will sometimes release material that they know in their hearts maybe wasn't up to their usual standards. To deny that such a possibility exists is the worst kind of delusional fanboy thinking I can imagine. I accept that no-one's subjective appraisal of any double album has any bearing on this and It doesn't make such material filler or padding but does at least acknowledge we are far too credulous and in thrall to our heroes at times in discussions like these.
I fail to see where anyone has shown fanboi tendencies, or demonstrated that they are in the thrall of any so-called heroes. No one has said that double albums are all golden and flawless. I responded to the claim that "Seems like every double album has some padding." and in the subsequent linear exchange of posts on that subject you leapt down my throat. Generalisations are never an accurate picture, especially in an area that has so few examples to choose from, but padding and filler implies deliberate intent, mediocre and weak does not.


So no musician you like has ever released any material which contains music they know is of an inferior standard to their usual work? I consider a No to that question certainly reeks of fanboyism frankly. (yet again it's my inflammatory phraseology that lights your tinderbox fuse e.g is credulous less contentious?) The material's lack of quality is not deliberate of course, but in most unlitigated cases it's usually released with the artist's express consent so I'm guessing if it's on the shelf they mean it man. If the material's lack of quality were deliberate then we encounter what for you is clearly the unthinkable doomsday scenario: I like music that the artist knew was s.h.i.t. ergo I have been duped and the foundation of my tastes has been irredeemably undermined forever. You're a very intelligent man and  although i don't expect you to agree with me I cannot understand why you fail to see the validity of this perspective. I don't believe I Ieapt down your throat either but then I'm Scottish, and even Hadrian called in the builders.
I never said that an artist has never released an album they know to be of an inferior standard (for example the contractual obligation album such as, perhaps, Mike Oldfield's Heaven's Open is testimony to that, but that was also a protest album, purposely flipping the bird at the suits at Virgin). I have also said that mediocre is not something an artist strives to achieve. If they arrive at mediocre that is different. If they recognise that themselves and still decide to release it that is different again. It seems that every artists decrees their latest opus to be their best, until the next one - but that's bravado and marketing, and ultimately for us to decide. What do you want me to say? Yes you are correct, artists have bad days? Of course they do - I'm not that remedial or obtuse. That still does not make weak tracks fillers and padding.

I don't consider sniping and ad hominem remarks as being light-hearted banter.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 16:13
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ no-one is suggesting that an artist would deliberately record bad music and yes of course, you can find anecdotal evidence that some people find the least popular tracks on any given album to be their own favourite etc  All I'm saying is that musicians are just like the rest of us: deeply flawed humans who will sometimes release material that they know in their hearts maybe wasn't up to their usual standards. To deny that such a possibility exists is the worst kind of delusional fanboy thinking I can imagine. I accept that no-one's subjective appraisal of any double album has any bearing on this and It doesn't make such material filler or padding but does at least acknowledge we are far too credulous and in thrall to our heroes at times in discussions like these.
I fail to see where anyone has shown fanboi tendencies, or demonstrated that they are in the thrall of any so-called heroes. No one has said that double albums are all golden and flawless. I responded to the claim that "Seems like every double album has some padding." and in the subsequent linear exchange of posts on that subject you leapt down my throat. Generalisations are never an accurate picture, especially in an area that has so few examples to choose from, but padding and filler implies deliberate intent, mediocre and weak does not.


So no musician you like has ever released any material which contains music they know is of an inferior standard to their usual work? I consider a No to that question certainly reeks of fanboyism frankly. (yet again it's my inflammatory phraseology that lights your tinderbox fuse e.g is credulous less contentious?) The material's lack of quality is not deliberate of course, but in most unlitigated cases it's usually released with the artist's express consent so I'm guessing if it's on the shelf they mean it man. If the material's lack of quality were deliberate then we encounter what for you is clearly the unthinkable doomsday scenario: I like music that the artist knew was s.h.i.t. ergo I have been duped and the foundation of my tastes has been irredeemably undermined forever. You're a very intelligent man and  although i don't expect you to agree with me I cannot understand why you fail to see the validity of this perspective. I don't believe I Ieapt down your throat either but then I'm Scottish, and even Hadrian called in the builders.
I never said that an artist has never released an album they know to be of an inferior standard (for example the contractual obligation album such as, perhaps, Mike Oldfield's Heaven's Open is testimony to that, but that was also a protest album, purposely flipping the bird at the suits at Virgin). I have also said that mediocre is not something an artist strives to achieve. If they arrive at mediocre that is different. If they recognise that themselves and still decide to release it that is different again. It seems that every artists decrees their latest opus to be their best, until the next one - but that's bravado and marketing, and ultimately for us to decide. What do you want me to say? Yes you are correct, artists have bad days? Of course they do - I'm not that remedial or obtuse. That still does not make weak tracks fillers and padding.

I don't consider sniping and ad hominem remarks as being light-hearted banter.


I called you intelligent, made a joke at the Scots expense and suggested you might be overly sensitive to criticism (maybe I was right on the 3rd score?) WTFConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog 74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 17:16
Some padding is by design.  Take Tales from Topographic Oceans for example.  Songs that probably should have been 12-14 minutes long were extended out to 18-20 minutes in order to have one song fit on each side of a double album.  The intentional padding, among other things, was one of the reasons Rick Wakeman decided to leave the band.  In fact during the recording of the album he would get so bored with the meandering solos that he would go next door where Black Sabbath was recording Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and spent time working on their album instead.  Here is direct quote from Rick himself-
"Because of the format of how records used to be we had too much for a single album but not enough for a double so we padded it out and the padding is awful but there are some beautiful solos like "Nous sommes du soleil" one of the most beautiful melodies and deserved to be developed even more perhaps."
 
Now I happen to love this album excessive as it may be.  The padding may not necessarily be bad music, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Edited by Prog 74 - March 19 2014 at 17:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 18:06
In Soviet Russia, album doubles you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 05:10
Has anyone done single LPs (the CD time frame notwithstanding) that one wishes were 2 LP sets?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 07:57
^ only single Smiths albums but if such were proposed to Dean your expected lifespan would be a (very generous) 12 seconds max.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 08:31
*sigh*




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 08:51
^ Yet the same joke passes without demur here (albeit you may not have seen same):

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97589


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 09:11
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ Yet the same joke passes without demur here (albeit you may not have seen same):

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97589


*sigh* Not the same joke.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 16:31
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Has anyone done single LPs (the CD time frame notwithstanding) that one wishes were 2 LP sets? 

Not sure I get what you mean - if you mean should some single LPs be doubles, then definitely! Smile Lots of modern albums that can fit on single CDs (many examples from the 90s like "Metropolis Pt. 2", "Still Life", etc. come to mind) would be improved in my mind if they were double albums. The only ones that shouldn't be really are probably post-rock albums - sort of ruins the soundscapes Ermm
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