Exclusionsist or Inclusivist? |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Topic: Exclusionsist or Inclusivist? Posted: April 18 2014 at 05:30 |
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It sux to even pigeonhole anything as there will always be those who will never see eye to eye on many levels, we just need a 'tag' to identify whatever it is, thus it's a catch-22, rendering my comment somewhat moot.
DSOTM is a darn fine album, even a good friend of mine who I never really thought would go for it much embraced it. That is, until his 2nd car crash, when Money was playing on the radio.......his first crash, Money was playing on the radio. True story. He can't listen to DSOTM anymore. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 18 2014 at 04:17 | ||
Over his long career he's vacillated hot and cold several times and not just on Prog.
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infocat
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 10 2011 Location: Colorado, USA Status: Offline Points: 4671 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:08 | ||
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Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 04:31 | ||
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. What I think we're saying is that Prog has NOT progressed due to a seismic shift in the market place/demographic circa 1980 so we're asking ourselves what is the relationship between the Progressive Rock music that continues to emerge post 1980 to the original Prog bands of the 70's (I think? and maybe also what does Prokofiev living to 123 years old have to do with getting back on topic - he should be decomposing by then surely?) Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 04:33 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 04:31 | ||
Musicians have a tendency to openly embrace classifications at the beginning of their careers then purposely reject them later. This is understandable and to be expected - they want the recognition that being part of a "scene" brings then want freedom from it once it becomes (artistically) restricting. SWilson is a classic example of that.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 04:13 | ||
Audience are inventing all the terms as rock journalists and (or) the reviewers are also a part of the audience as well, so the musicians by themselfs do not have anything to do with that (mostly).
Edited by Svetonio - April 17 2014 at 04:18 |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:33 | ||
Yeah, I temporarily forgot the Germans themselves preferred to call it "Kosmische Musik" or just refer to regional avantgarde/psychedelic scenes.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 17 2014 at 04:12 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:32 | ||
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:24 | ||
The thing about "Krautrock" is that just like "shoegaze" or "grunge" it was originally coined by music reviewers to describe several disparate music styles and associated social subcultures that all rejected the categorization so I'm kind of uncomfortable using it as a genre classification.
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:20 | ||
I'm reminded of this thread I started a while ago, which had a similar thrust but perhaps went off the rails by focusing too narrowly on the role of influence from classical music in the classic British progressive rock sound.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:12 | ||
... Parliamentary debates notwithstanding. Of course they could be both (stoned or intoxicated as well as... etc...) Sorry, could not resist that. Let's get back to defending false dichotomies. There I go again... God, I can't seem to get away from any opportunity to Sl*g off those which seek power over us. OK, just to add fuel to the fire how does one tell that say prog rock however well, quasi or ill defined, has progressed? From what to what? Making it as good as the Prokofiev playing hear at the moment? IOW accepting that in the late 70s there was a collapse in prog rock, was there a progression consequently, how are these things identified? To me most symphonic rock (not metal) became a style of playing (inclusivistically oriented) rather than a sense of hearing something new (exclusionistically oriented). Should this be tried? Is it commercially viable? Should an audience be challenged? Btw I am not that certain about the i and e word variations I have used above. As a non-expert at everything I'll stand be corrected. |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 02:55 | ||
The thing about "post-rock" is that just like "shoegaze" or "grunge" it was originally coined by music reviewers to describe several disparate music styles and associated social subcultures that all rejected the categorization so I'm kind of uncomfortable using it as a genre classification. However, certain post-rock groups like Tortoise or Trans-Am for instance have an obvious influence from Can... and if the "Kosmische Musik" scene (better known in the Anglosphere as "Krautrock") belongs here, they do as well.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 17 2014 at 03:48 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 02:34 | ||
Good post certainly which I probably agree with. Yes, I could have phrased the question better but it was chosen to be deliberately provocative and indicate an either/or response was required. I wanted people to kick back against this false dichotomy and many have done so to date which is encouraging. You are correct that it's not black and white and is a bit of both i.e. Prog as broadly understood in the PA sub genres must have limits that cannot be reasonably expected to encompass every new facet and development in contemporary rock that is deemed progressive. This of course begs the question (which I implied so poorly): where do we draw these limits or do the PA members feel that doing so would be restrictive and counter productive? I'm not familiar enough with anything that could be considered post rock to comment on its suitability for inclusion on PA or otherwise. Wait up - I like Mogwai well enough but I'm not sure I can hear any Prog in there (maybe some Kraut, Industrial, Noise, Avant, a smidgin of Symph? and Ambient yes) Tortoise are also a band I like but sound like a retro futuristic supergrounp of (Fritz) Lang, (Raymond) Scott and (Harry) Partch. Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 02:47 |
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2762 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 19:37 | ||
I don't think this question was phrased very well. It clearly makes the first option sound more viable. My answer is a mix of both.
Prog has "changed", in that it has explored new areas within the boundaries of the style, but the definition of progressive music is not infinitely flexible to the point of including things that sound nothing like the original progressive bands. There is clearly a broad genre called 'prog', and there is no reason to make that term meaningless by forcing it to encompass all innovative, left-of-center rock music just because the term "progressive" literally fits that. There is no need for a term to encompass all substantially innovative rock music, period. Just for an example, I think Kayo Dot is a fine inclusion due to the avant-prog element (probably a candidate for crossover), but I think adding post-rock in general was several steps too far. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64367 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 18:31 | ||
^ You can't, but you can show a musical lineage from the extant recordings made which shows influence. However, you are correct in that most progressive musicians would still be making progressive music even if Floyd or Crimson had never existed.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Metalmarsh89
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 15 2013 Location: Oregon, USA Status: Offline Points: 2673 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 12:06 | ||
If we have a proto-prog classification for the bands that preceded prog (even if they were the proggiest thing to date), doesn't that mean that the label of prog is based on the music itself rather than the evolution of the entire genre?
Anyway, I vote option 1. How can you prove Steven Wilson wouldn't be writing proggy music if Pink Floyd or King Crimson never got together to write some wacky tunes? |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: @ wicker man Status: Offline Points: 32703 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 11:22 | ||
No, Prog ceased circa 1969.
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Just a fanboy passin' through.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 06:01 | ||
Yep, Rick appears to have been an old school beer monster in his youth (which may have led to his feeling somewhat excluded from the recreational core activity of his band mates at around this time? - there is no more tortuous and futile an exchange of ideas than that which takes place between the intoxicated and the stoned) Edited by ExittheLemming - April 15 2014 at 06:04 |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 05:16 | ||
Oh ! That sort of 'pot' noodle - silly me..........
......yes indeed, plenty of that on Topographic, and that's what makes it soooo enjoyable !! Though I couldn't see Wakeman toking on a J. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 05:04 | ||
It's just a very lame play on words that imply illicit drug use can lead to lazy self indulgence i.e. noodling away aimlessly while stoned off yer tits etc Edited by ExittheLemming - April 15 2014 at 05:05 |
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