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Topic ClosedWhy do we love Prog concept albums?

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2014 at 14:45
^Yes RF4, very cool, indeed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2014 at 14:50
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

^ I never really considered Court as a concept album.  You do make a compelling case.  I Talk To The Wind is my favorite song, even the middle part that gets so disparaged. Smile

It may have something to do with my words all being carried away, or maybe the wind not hearing...
It's not a concept album as such. I'm not sure that anyone other than Sinfield knew it was even conceptual at the time of recording it (and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't either). The claim is that it is conceptually based upon a historic personality.

As I'm sure we all know, the name of the band comes from the lyric to the title track, (the words of which were written for Sinfield's former band before KC was even formed), which everyone (including Fripp) thinks is a reference to the Devil or Beelzebub, but apparently (it is claimed) refers to the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II Hohenstaufen (who, as a religious sceptic was excommunicated four times and Pope Gregory IX called him the Antichrist ...hence the Beelzebub connection). 

It has since been claimed (by whom?) that the whole album is conceptually based upon Frederick II and it is in fact a real concept album. Since none of this is self-evident, or even poetically obscured in the lyrics, I question any claim that it a concept album. My cryptic comment regarding I Talk To The Wind, (which was originally written for Giles, Giles & Fripp), merely questions where and how it fits in this concept.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2014 at 14:58
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ Cool, I'l need to have some more detailed listens while reading the lyrics.
The book makes for a nice companion piece as there are holes in the album story that the book fills in the details for. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2014 at 15:11
Is ITCotCK a concept album?           Answer no.1       No way.                        Answer no. 2       Way!

Edited by SteveG - August 12 2014 at 15:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2014 at 22:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is ITCotCK a concept album?           Answer no.1       No way.                        Answer no. 2       Way!
 
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2014 at 10:34




I think that the prog genre does have it's share of blame for the illusion of concept albums gone wild because the genre fed into the Zeitgeist while that Zeitgeist fed the concept craze. However, what were considered 'concept' albums is the real issue at hand. Was Sgt. Pepper's a concept album because the first two songs were thematically linked while the album cover portrayed a 'surrogate band' that was to supposed to replace the Beatles in performance. In that case, it could be argued that ITCotCK was also a 'concept' album because someone recognised a vague theme in the album, along with it's own avant garde album cover art. On the other hand, Days of Future Passed  by the Moody Blues appears to be a legitimate concept album, albeit a forced one, about the events passing by in a day awkwardly joined together by orchestration. So what, exactly, constitutes a real concept album?







Edited by SteveG - August 13 2014 at 14:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 03:41
^ I think themed albums and concept albums are different things, although it may be difficult to draw a definite dividing line. A collection of songs loosely linked by some thematic common ground does not make a true concept album in my book.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 04:04
^ I suspect a lot of people think that. If that were true then Dark Side Of The Moon, Six Wives of Henry VIII and Tales From Topographic Oceans would not be concept albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 05:48
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ I suspect a lot of people think that. If that were true then Dark Side Of The Moon, Six Wives of Henry VIII and Tales From Topographic Oceans would not be concept albums.

When we start navigating these waters (or oceans, lol), we start to enter subjective interpretation land, which is where it all resides anyway. If there's a fine line between concept and theme - but their length and density can be almost completely interchangeable - does it really matter? I don't say this to be challenging or aggressive against the initial assertion here; I'm genuinely inquiring.

Most would agree that Tales From Topographic Oceans is the epitome of what's wrong with progressive rock...pretentiousness, length, etc. I, however, love that record. Maybe it's not so much revering or denouncing concept or theme albums as it is just genuinely liking the music, regardless of the form it's presented in.

This is a fantastic thread and discussion, btw! Smile


Edited by PrognosticMind - August 14 2014 at 05:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 06:12
An album that was intended to be a concept album is, in general, a concept album. If the artist set-out with a concept in mind, however well or poorly that was executed, then it is a concept album. [pedantically, concept means - "something conceived"]. Deciding that an album has a concept after the event is, by definition, not conceptual. 

Theme is different, a theme can be planned (so is thus conceptual) but you can also identify a theme after the event, even one that wasn't planned or conceived.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 06:21
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

An album that was intended to be a concept album is, in general, a concept album. If the artist set-out with a concept in mind, however well or poorly that was executed, then it is a concept album. [pedantically, concept means - "something conceived"]. Deciding that an album has a concept after the event is, by definition, not conceptual. 

Theme is different, a theme can be planned (so is thus conceptual) but you can also identify a theme after the event, even one that wasn't planned or conceived.



So in order to technically qualify as a concept album, it must be the artist's original intention to be a concept album?

What if the market receives it and perceives it as a loose theme versus a concept; is it still a concept album because the artist originally intended it to be one?

What if the artist intended it to be a concept album, but it falls within the parameters of what constitutes a theme instead?

I only ask these questions because the whole idea of the two things still seems very fuzzy and arbitrary to me. I'm having a hard time discerning the difference you're describing here, though I do feel you do have a valid distinction above.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 06:36
Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

An album that was intended to be a concept album is, in general, a concept album. If the artist set-out with a concept in mind, however well or poorly that was executed, then it is a concept album. [pedantically, concept means - "something conceived"]. Deciding that an album has a concept after the event is, by definition, not conceptual. 

Theme is different, a theme can be planned (so is thus conceptual) but you can also identify a theme after the event, even one that wasn't planned or conceived.



So in order to technically qualify as a concept album, it must be the artist's original intention to be a concept album?

What if the market receives it and perceives it as a loose theme versus a concept; is it still a concept album because the artist originally intended it to be one?

What if the artist intended it to be a concept album, but it falls within the parameters of what constitutes a theme instead?

I only ask these questions because the whole idea of the two things still seems very fuzzy and arbitrary to me. I'm having a hard time discerning the difference you're describing here, though I do feel you do have a valid distinction above.
Case in point: Aqualung vs Thick as a Brick.

"Disagreeing with the assessment from some music critics that Aqualung (1971) had been a concept album, Ian Anderson decided to give them "the mother of all concept albums", including the preposterous idea that the lyrics had been written by an eight-year-old boy." ~ wikipedia


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 06:37
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

An album that was intended to be a concept album is, in general, a concept album. If the artist set-out with a concept in mind, however well or poorly that was executed, then it is a concept album. [pedantically, concept means - "something conceived"]. Deciding that an album has a concept after the event is, by definition, not conceptual. 

Theme is different, a theme can be planned (so is thus conceptual) but you can also identify a theme after the event, even one that wasn't planned or conceived.



So in order to technically qualify as a concept album, it must be the artist's original intention to be a concept album?

What if the market receives it and perceives it as a loose theme versus a concept; is it still a concept album because the artist originally intended it to be one?

What if the artist intended it to be a concept album, but it falls within the parameters of what constitutes a theme instead?

I only ask these questions because the whole idea of the two things still seems very fuzzy and arbitrary to me. I'm having a hard time discerning the difference you're describing here, though I do feel you do have a valid distinction above.
Case in point: Aqualung vs Thick as a Brick.

"Disagreeing with the assessment from some music critics that Aqualung (1971) had been a concept album, Ian Anderson decided to give them "the mother of all concept albums", including the preposterous idea that the lyrics had been written by an eight-year-old boy." ~ wikipedia



Ah, very good. That makes much more sense given said example. Thank you for clarifying that for me, sir! Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 06:52
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ I suspect a lot of people think that. If that were true then Dark Side Of The Moon, Six Wives of Henry VIII and Tales From Topographic Oceans would not be concept albums.
In general discussions I will certainly usually talk about these as concept albums, out of habit because "concept album" is the term we usually use , but if we intentionally enter into the discussion then I would indeed point that they are actually themed albums rather than strictly concept albums.

I can agree that it is the intention of the artist which should be relevant but we do not always know it when it comes to themed albums. Actual concept albums are straightforward, it is obvious that the artist built a concept, we do not need to be told, but when it comes to themed albums, we are either told or we are free to identify them as somehow forming a concept or not. That is why I initially made the assertion that they are not actually the same thing to me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 15:31
[Originally Posted by Dean]
Disagreeing with the assessment from some music critics that Aqualung (1971) had been a , Ian Anderson decided to give them "the mother of all concept albums", including the preposterous idea that the lyrics had been written by an eight-year-old boy.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

       I think it's time to call foul on Mr. Anderson in regard to Aqualung not being a concept album because he said it's not. Same thing with "the mother of all concept" albums being a joke.

       I cannot conceive of one of rock music's most intelligent composers and musicians not seeing Aqualung as a concept or mostly songs containing the same theme, i.e. religion, and just dismissing it out of hand. I understand that there was little precedent for concept albums containing songs of similar themes until Floyd's Dark Side hit the scene, but whatever self conscious motives Anderson had regarding Aqualung (an album containing one of rock's most iconic conceived sleeves by the way) is beyond me. If he never cares to admit the fact, he made a concept album that we can clearly see.

       I also get miffed about TAAB being an excuse to create a parody of a concept album. This was not exactly Monty Python set to never ending folk rock music. I give Ian Anderson credit for his intelligence, I wish he would come clean and respect ours, at least now.

Now I feel better.

Edited by SteveG - August 14 2014 at 15:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 18:03

Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

"Drummer Clive Bunker believes that the record's perception as a concept album is a case of "Chinese whispers", explaining "you play the record to a couple of Americans, tell them that there's a lyrical theme loosely linking a few songs, and then notice the figure of the Aqualung character on the cover, and suddenly the word is out that Jethro Tull have done a concept album"


Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

[Originally Posted by Dean]
Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Disagreeing with the assessment from some music critics that Aqualung (1971) had been a , Ian Anderson decided to give them "the mother of all concept albums", including the preposterous idea that the lyrics had been written by an eight-year-old boy.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
       I think it's time to call foul on Mr. Anderson in regard to Aqualung not being a concept album because hesaid it's not. Same thing with "the mother of all concept" albums being a joke.

       I cannot conceive of one of rock music's most intelligent composers and musicians not seeing Aqualung as a concept or mostly songs containing the same theme, i.e. religion, and just dismissing it out of hand. I understand that there was little precedent for concept albums containing songs of similar themes until Floyd's Dark Side hit the scene, but whatever self conscious motives Anderson had regarding Aqualung (an album containing one of rock's most iconic conceived sleeves by the way) is beyond me. If he never cares to admit the fact, he made a concept album that we can clearly see.

       I also get miffed about TAAB being an excuse to create a parody of a concept album. This was not exactly Monty Python set to never ending folk rock music. I give Ian Anderson credit for his intelligence, I wish he would come clean and respect ours, at least now.

Now I feel better.  
QED. Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 19:09
^Sorry, my dear chap, but I got into the bloody music business because I'm hard of hearing. Hence, no whispers touched these ears. And I'm still waiting for an official statement from Mr. Anderson himself regarding this topic, not some old drivel from the blasted drummer. QEF.  Cool

Edited by SteveG - August 14 2014 at 19:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 19:37
*sigh*

Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Anderson has consistently maintained that Aqualung is not a "concept album". A 2005 interview included on Aqualung Live gives Anderson's thoughts on the matter:[14]
I always said at the time that this is not a concept album; this is just an album of varied songs of varied instrumentation and intensity in which three or four are the kind of keynote pieces for the album but it doesn't make it a concept album. In my mind when it came to writing the next album, Thick as a Brick, was done very much in the sense of: 'Whuh, if they thought Aqualung was a concept album, Oh! Okay, we'll show you a concept album.' And it was done as a kind of spoof, a send-up, of the concept album genre. ... But Aqualung itself, in my mind was never a concept album. Just a bunch of songs.

What's your next excuse - a note from his mum?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2014 at 19:41
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

*sigh*

Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Anderson has consistently maintained that Aqualung is not a "concept album". A 2005 interview included on Aqualung Live gives Anderson's thoughts on the matter:[14]
I always said at the time that this is not a concept album; this is just an album of varied songs of varied instrumentation and intensity in which three or four are the kind of keynote pieces for the album but it doesn't make it a concept album. In my mind when it came to writing the next album, Thick as a Brick, was done very much in the sense of: 'Whuh, if they thought Aqualung was a concept album, Oh! Okay, we'll show you a concept album.' And it was done as a kind of spoof, a send-up, of the concept album genre. ... But Aqualung itself, in my mind was never a concept album. Just a bunch of songs.

What's your next excuse - a note from his mum?
QED indeed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2014 at 09:25









Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

*sigh*
Anderson has consistently maintained that Aqualungis not a "concept album". A 2005 interview included on Aqualung Live I always said at the time that this is not a concept album; this is just an album of varied songs of varied instrumentation and intensity in which three or four are the kind of keynote pieces for the album but it doesn't make it a concept album. In my mind when it came to writing the next album, Thick as a Brick, was done very much in the sense of: 'Whuh, if they thought Aqualung was a concept album, Oh! Okay, we'll show you a concept album.' And it was done as a kind of spoof, a send-up, of the concept album genre. ... But in itself, in my mind was never a concept album. Just a bunch of songs.


The great thing about thing about being from a certain vintage is that sometimes you are a witness to events at the time they happened, even events that happened 43 years ago. The hard thing is trying to keep things in perspective for other people if they were around at that time or not as after events coloured the original. Case in point, Aqualung as a concept album. When Aqualung was released in 1971, ITCotCk was two years old and the definitive concept album Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon was still two full years away from putting it' s "Concept" stamp upon the Progressive Rock world. And that is a key point to remember as Dark Side revived and improved the past "concept album" practice of instilling a sense of continuity to the listener by running all of it's songs together. Either by cross fading one song into another or bridging the songs together with sound effects like off hand dialogue and ticking clocks and other sound effects.1971's Aqualung used no such aural tricks to instill a sense of continuity of theme.

In the album's liner notes (the upper half of the back cover) was a preamble that linked Anderson's "4 songs with a common theme", as he stated in your post, i. e. religion, with the man made subhuman species of which the Aqualung figure is a part with both the subhumans and and man's created "God" having within both an unforeseen divine presence. To wit:

1) In the begining Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.
2) And man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over the earth with it wa suited to Man.
3) And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw thtat it was good.
4) And Man formed Aqualung from the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind.
5) And these lesser man did cast into the void. And some were burned; and some were put apart from their kind.
6) And Man became the God the he had created and with his miracles did rule over the earth.
7) But as these things did come to pass, the spirit that did cause man to create his God lived on within all men: even within Aqualung.
8) And Man saw it not.
9) But for Christ's he he'd better start looking.

This is what started Aqualung's concept album debate upon its release in 1971, not ghost whispers. So even if Anderson still contends to this day that Aqualung is not a concept album, his Book of Genesis mocking album preamble connected more than  just four songs and themes together such as Aqualung, Crossed Eyed Mary and the entire side two multi song diatribe on Man's "God", infinitely better than Dark Side would two years later on with sonic tricks.  The difference between the two albums is that one album's creators agree that theirs is a concept album, the other album's creator does not. And Ian Anderson is still having a chuckle over it at our expense, cheeky devil, as far as I'm concerned. Better get his mum to start writing that note.









Edited by SteveG - August 19 2014 at 09:40
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