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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2014 at 20:55
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

 
A parallel historical development. Rogerthat can say the tennis player played with aggression. I cannot do so and mean the same thing. I am positing that what Rogerthat can do is a later development that occurred outside North America.

A back formation would indeed make 'aggression' older than 'aggress'. But if the back formation is older than aggressive, then it still makes more sense to say that aggressive is derived from aggress, otherwise the reason we don't have the form 'aggressionive' would be without explanation.

No, rather I think both myself and Dean have said you cannot use aggression to describe the nature of the tactical approach used, in the sense of a tendency to move forward or tendency to attack.  Since aggressive means "likely to attack", the term (rather than a single word) aggressive tactics conveys it better.  And as I said earlier, the more common usage always was attacking or offensive tennis.  Offensive and attacking are closer antonyms of defensive and make more sense.  Using an adjective to describe the kind of tennis a player is playing makes more sense to me than to use a noun.  So instead of saying "Federer played attacking tennis",  I might substitute it with "Federer was aggressive in his approach".  The latter is less precise but might still be understood in context.  However, if I said, "Federer showed aggression", it would imply that he did stuff like baring his teeth angrily to his opponent or yelled at the umpire. The bald, unqualified statement "Federer was aggressive" could also be easily misinterpreted. 

 As between aggressiveness and aggression, aggressiveness is a better word to use in this context (which is why it has now come into usage) but for aesthetic reasons, I would much rather use aggressive with an appropriate noun following it to describe what was aggressive.  Or, I would much rather not use any word from that family in that context and stick to attacking or offensive.  All of which might explain why I was puzzled when I heard aggressiveness in sports commentary.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2014 at 21:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Sorry, but I think you are wrong on every count here.

If an aggressive driver is not driving defensively then he is driving offensively. To go on the offensive is to attack. And aggressive driving style is confrontational, it is not that the driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in traffic, he is using aggression to create them. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving). Aggressive driving is not a positive trait unless it is on the racetrack (and even then it is seen as irresponsible if it endangers the lives of other drivers).

Aggressive really does mean "ready to attack", that's part of the dictionary definition of the word

In the stock market example you are mixing up your metaphors (erm, not mixing metaphors that something different). Bullish is the metaphor, to act like a bull is to be aggressive and assertive. A bullish market is an aggressive one, not the other way around. Aggressive buying is precisely and literally about attacking the market. In business a hostile takeover is an act of aggression against a company that is unwilling to be bought or resistant to the merger - it is an attack.

Attack and Defence in sport is not a metaphor, it is literal. When one side attacks the other defends - that is precisely what it means. How can this be a metaphor? If a player has an aggressive serve it means he has an attacking serve, this again is not a metaphor. 



I think the confusion here is over whether aggressive implies a confrontational attitude or simply a competitive or driving approach.  The answer is it can mean both depending on the context.  And I think what Hackettfan means when he says attack in sport is a metaphor is that you do not literally attack, as in physically assault, the opponent.  You tactically force yourself on him within the rules of that sport.  So in boxing, attacking does come very close or in fact amounts to an actual physical assault whereas in tennis it would simply mean trying to take the net away and finish the point and in cricket, using the front foot and driving rather than blocking the ball.  In chess, it would mean forcing a move from the opponent that would involve loss of coins for either side.  In all of the last three contexts, there is no actual assault, it's only attacking within the limited context of the game. But since attacking, unlike aggressive, is not used in a behavioural context at all (where aggressive is contrasted in a negative light with assertive), I prefer the former in a sporting context.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 01:27
^ Perhaps there has been contamination from other languages where the distinction is more definite, such as Spanish. In Spanish we have:
Agresion (noun)
Agresividad (noun)
Agresivo (adjective)
(Agredir is the verb but I don't think it's relevant for this)

So we have two nouns linked to the same adjective and verb, and in Spanish the distinction between the two is clear. 

Agresion is a fact, it is the fact of acting against someone or something, or of breaking the rules or the generally accepted correct behaviour.

Agresividad is taking risks, it is showing no fear, it is putting your opponents against the wall, stressing them. It is taking the lead, in a way the opposite of being prudent or conservative. It is an attitude, not a definite act. Depending on the situation such an attitude could result in harm to others but not necessarily. A racing driver may drive with "agresividad" and that means that he is increasing the risks of anything nasty happening, but it does not mean that he has actually caused anything nasty yet. He may drive with "agresividad" and the race ends happily without anything bad having happened.
But the term may also be used for a tennis player who constantly pushes his opponent to the limits, or someone who gambles taking risks and causing his opponents to take risks higher than they would normally do etc, and in these situations if it goes wrong it will not result in any harm to the opponent, only to himself.
 
Agresion implies that something nasty or at least considered incorrect has actually happened, it is not merely taking risks but actually having caused something undesirable.


Because of this distinction in my mother language I tend to equate "aggressiveness" more with "agresividad" and "aggression" with "agresion" even if that's probably not the actual proper use in English.


Edited by Gerinski - August 18 2014 at 01:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 04:55
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


I think the confusion here is over whether aggressive implies a confrontational attitude or simply a competitive or driving approach.  The answer is it can mean both depending on the context.  And I think what Hackettfan means when he says attack in sport is a metaphor is that you do not literally attack, as in physically assault, the opponent.  You tactically force yourself on him within the rules of that sport.  So in boxing, attacking does come very close or in fact amounts to an actual physical assault whereas in tennis it would simply mean trying to take the net away and finish the point and in cricket, using the front foot and driving rather than blocking the ball.  In chess, it would mean forcing a move from the opponent that would involve loss of coins for either side.  In all of the last three contexts, there is no actual assault, it's only attacking within the limited context of the game. But since attacking, unlike aggressive, is not used in a behavioural context at all (where aggressive is contrasted in a negative light with assertive), I prefer the former in a sporting context.
I see what you are saying but I don't see that 'attacking' (and thus 'aggressive') is figurative (or 'metaphoric') in these contexts just because it isn't a physical attack. When you fall in love the 'fall' is figurative, but when you attack an opponent in a sporting game the 'attack' is not figurative, the meaning does not magically switch from literal to figurative when the action does not involve physical contact, it remains the same. Attacks in war-games and military exercises do not become metaphorical just because non-live ammunition is used. Historically all 'sports' were a non-lethal form of military training and every game has an opponent even when competing against yourself. All the terms and synonyms we have used [in these posts] in those non-physical contexts to describe aggressiveness are related to literal attack: confrontation, offence, force, opposition, [to which we can add assault, assail, pounce, strike, storm, grapple, etc.] ... As Todd said, 'getting in someone's face' is related to that and so is 'advance' and 'push forward', their meaning in these contexts comes from the act of attacking in a literal sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 04:59
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ Perhaps there has been contamination from other languages where the distinction is more definite, such as Spanish. In Spanish we have:
Agresion (noun)
Agresividad (noun)
Agresivo (adjective)
(Agredir is the verb but I don't think it's relevant for this)

So we have two nouns linked to the same adjective and verb, and in Spanish the distinction between the two is clear. 

Agresion is a fact, it is the fact of acting against someone or something, or of breaking the rules or the generally accepted correct behaviour.

Agresividad is taking risks, it is showing no fear, it is putting your opponents against the wall, stressing them. It is taking the lead, in a way the opposite of being prudent or conservative. It is an attitude, not a definite act. Depending on the situation such an attitude could result in harm to others but not necessarily. A racing driver may drive with "agresividad" and that means that he is increasing the risks of anything nasty happening, but it does not mean that he has actually caused anything nasty yet. He may drive with "agresividad" and the race ends happily without anything bad having happened.
But the term may also be used for a tennis player who constantly pushes his opponent to the limits, or someone who gambles taking risks and causing his opponents to take risks higher than they would normally do etc, and in these situations if it goes wrong it will not result in any harm to the opponent, only to himself.
 
Agresion implies that something nasty or at least considered incorrect has actually happened, it is not merely taking risks but actually having caused something undesirable.


Because of this distinction in my mother language I tend to equate "aggressiveness" more with "agresividad" and "aggression" with "agresion" even if that's probably not the actual proper use in English.
That's interesting Gerard. I looked up Agresividad in Spanish on WordReference.com - it gives two definitions...
  1. Tendencia a atacar o actuar con provocación y violencia: el estrés conlleva mucha agresividad.
  2. Fuerza, dinamismo o decisión para emprender algo y afrontar sus dificultades: se hizo hincapié en la agresividad de estos jóvenes empresarios.
     Este significado constituye un anglicismo.
(sorry I've used Google Translate, I don't read or speak Spanish):
  1. Tendency to attack or act provocatively and violence: stress leads to aggressiveness
  2. Strength, dynamism or decision to undertake something and confront their difficulties: emphasis was placed on the aggressiveness of these young entrepreneurs.
    ♦ This is an Anglicised meaning. 
(Note: It gives a similar Anglicised second meaning for Agresivo)

That's not exactly the kind of Anglicising of a Spanish word I was asking about earlier but it is interesting that the modern Spanish meaning has been altered by the usage of the [transliterated] comparable word in America.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 05:44
^ I didn't know that the Spanish 2nd meaning of "agresividad" was actually an Anglicised meaning coming from American English and I had thought that perhaps it had been the other way around.
In any case, seeing the differentiation of the two meanings, I do not see anything inherently wrong with using two different words. Perhaps strictly speaking, "aggression" would be more correct in English no matter what are we actually meaning, but if the use of "aggressiveness" in certain situations can help in making a distinction, clarifying that we do not mean any factual aggression or attack, but more the Spanish interpretation of "agresividad" (being bold, challenging, ready to take risks etc) I don't see it so bad.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 05:57
^ it is more to do with how the word sounds to English ears (and from what Roger has said, Indian ears) than any difference in meaning. We can (and do) appreciate the difference in meaning (and Aggression has the same two related meanings), but prefer to use the verb 'aggressive' with an appropriate noun as an descriptive noun-phrase than use this verbal noun.



Edited by Dean - August 18 2014 at 08:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 16:38
I've read this tweet by Jason Fields of Reuters Top News:
Quote Bad week for weapons: U.S. spending millions to blow up captured U.S. materiel in Iraq; MRAPs in #Ferguson: http://reut.rs/1oV8cuf
... and, well, what do you know: "materiel" is an actual word. I didn't know that. There must be tons of words to learn from professional journalists.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 18 2014 at 16:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 20:17
Now that zachfive mentioned Roger Goodell on the "... American football" thread, I've skimmed through the guy's Wiki page and found a phrase in use: fait accompli. Clicked on it, and this is what I've seen.

Anyone around here in the habit of using foreign phrases in their English writing or speech?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2014 at 22:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 01:24
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Now that zachfive mentioned Roger Goodell on the "... American football" thread, I've skimmed through the guy's Wiki page and found a phrase in use: fait accompli. Clicked on it, and this is what I've seen.

Anyone around here in the habit of using foreign phrases in their English writing or speech?
Let's wait for the reply of our British friends but I guess that using French expressions is probably more common in the UK than in the US. For me living in the Flemish part of Belgium it's probably even more common since Flemish frequently mix French expressions in their Dutch, and many such expressions may then get carried into their way of speaking English. But I routinely communicate in English with Europeans from other countries and I see that many do use such French expressions as well, or at least they understand them and are not surprised by their use.
Many from the list you posted are relatively common, some of the most used:
a la carte
amateur
aperitif or apero
cafe (for meaning not the drink but the place)
carte blanche
femme fatale
force majeure
liaison
motif
papier-mache
pret-a-porter
raison d'etre
tete-a-tete

"Ciao" and "A rivederci" are Italian expressions also common here in Europe among non-Italians.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 02:43
There are a few more I can think of: coup de grace, volte face, tour de force. They are used more in written communication than in conversation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 03:01
My point is that there are some un-common foreign phrases and terms that are seldom used by people in writing. Just thought I'd bring up some of them as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 03:16
A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

I was on a training course in Munich many years ago that was run in English. Most of the students were German together with an Austrian, three Englishmen, a Scot, a Frenchman and one Italian. During one of the lunch breaks as the meal was served the Bavarian waiter said 'Bon appétit' much to the amusement of the French guy who responded with 'Merci beaucoup'. This sparked a discussion about the various "foreign" words and phrases that were common between our six countries and the general conclusion was that loaned French and Italian words were predominately about food and drink while English words were mostly about technology (it was a technology course for engineers so that was an inevitable conclusion). Much to the consternation of the Germans, the only German phrases we could think of were 'Zeitgeist' and 'Donner und Blitzen'. Sometime later when we were back in the classroom I sneezed, without thinking Roger (the Scot) said 'gesundheit' and I acknowledged with 'danke schön' ... and all the Germans cheered and applauded.

For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".


Edited by Dean - August 19 2014 at 03:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

LOL

Once in Japan for work we were having dinner among colleagues, all of us European, and our drink during the whole meal was beer (as is usually the case in Japan) and we had had quite a few each of us... When we were done, I ordered "the bill please" in English, as I barely know a couple of words in Japanese. As you know Japanese people have some trouble discerning the sounds of "r" and "l" (if they should talk about Roger Taylor they will pronounce something like Logel Taylol was a gleat drummel). To our surprise the guy came back with one more beer for each of us, he had understood "beer please!" (we did not refuse it LOL)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 On the song Certifiable #1 Smash, Kevin Gilbert pronounces multicultural the way English/Indian speakers would so perhaps the styling mult-I wasn't born yet.  But it's always sem-I final now. 
The one aspect of the English language that I like the most is it is a living language - it evolves and adapts and is forever changing, words like "bad" now mean "good" just as "awful" originally meant "worthy of respect" (literally "full of awe"). Unlike many other languages it is not resistant to change and readily adopts new words and subtle changes in meaning; the English language has such a vast vocabulary because of this and not just from the melding of the Northern European Germanic/Anglo-Saxon with the Romance languages of Southern Europe. 

American English (as odd as it may seem) does not evolve as quickly or as often as British English. This seems counter-intuitive because much play is made of the Americanisation of British English, for all its adaptability and willingness to change nothing raises the hackles of an Englishman more that to hear his native tongue suffer the vandalism of Americanisation, to see colour spelt without a 'u' (or color spelled without a 'u') for example. Yet since the creation of the American nation 400 years ago the two dialects have diverged and it has been British English that has changed more, for example the "u" in colour and favour is an addition into English spelling since Elizabethan times, the lack of  the 'u" in Americanised spelling is not an omission. Neither forms of English would be recognisable to an Elizabethan.

The same is true of pronunciation - words like schedule and controversy have changed in Britain since the 1600s whereas in America they have remained unchanged. Whether "sch" should be pronounced "shh" or "sk" was should ideally be determined by the pronunciation of the root word in the language it was derived from ..."shh" for Germanic words and "sk" for Latin words. But English doesn't do that - the Germanic 'school' is pronounced 'skool' on both sides of the Atlantic whereas the Germanic pronunciation should be 'shhool' (like the German 'schule'). Since schedule has a Latin etymology then "skedule" is the 'correct' pronunciation, it is British English that has given it a Germanic pronunciation. Unfortunately though, that cannot be viewed as a generalisation since 'schism' is usually given a Latin "skism" pronunciation in both dialects but some American's give it the softer "shhism". 

It could be that sem-eye could be an older pronunciation than sem-ee, but in this case I doubt it since every other Romance language seems to pronounce it sem-ee

Like "aggressiveness" makes an unnecessary noun from an adjective that was already derived from a noun, the Americanisation of English that is guaranteed to wind-up a Brit and the one we are most resistant to is the creation of unnecessary verbs from nouns (incentivise) or using nouns as verbs (impact). Applying a rule that converts a noun to a verb for every noun just seems superfluous and nouns as verbs just sounds lazy.

Of course, none of this explains (or excuses) missing the "i" in Aluminium or the "l" in Solder.



One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:45
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

LOL

Once in Japan for work we were having dinner among colleagues, all of us European, and our drink during the whole meal was beer (as is usually the case in Japan) and we had had quite a few each of us... When we were done, I ordered "the bill please" in English, as I barely know a couple of words in Japanese. As you know Japanese people have some trouble discerning the sounds of "r" and "l" (if they should talk about Roger Taylor they will pronounce something like Logel Taylol was a gleat drummel). To our surprise the guy came back with one more beer for each of us, he had understood "beer please!" (we did not refuse it LOL)

Nice... LOL

I have a similar story.  When I was a kid, my family visited another family who was from Finland.  The father of that family was a visiting professor at the university where my father taught, and they had been in the country only a short while.   Most of the family spoke very little English.   We were served dinner, and when the mother came around to take our plates at the end of the meal, she made a gesture asking if it was okay to take my plate.   I politely said, "yes thanks, I'm finished."  She looked puzzled and paused a moment.  I repeated what I said, and then realized the confusion.  "Done.  I'm done, I mean."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 11:23
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
'tis a good one and another that shows how British English evolves faster than American English. 

It's also an example of a noun used as a verb that the Brits tend to avoid. Orient was originally a noun meaning "East", as a verb it meant to align with the points of a compass, namely 'East', from this we get the noun Orientation. Orientate is a back-formation from this new noun, and since we like to avoid nouns and verbs we made a new verb Orientate to replace Orient, allowing us to keep the original "East" meaning.

It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 11:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 
You write 'with out' as two separate words which feels awkward to me (?)

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".
Sorry to be nit picky but since we are in a letters thread, 'C'est la gare' would be written with only one 'r'.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2014 at 12:18
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 
You write 'with out' as two separate words which feels awkward to me (?)
That was a typo - It is awkward, and wrong. Embarrassed
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".
Sorry to be nit picky but since we are in a letters thread, 'C'est la gare' would be written with only one 'r'.
That's another typo. Embarrassed

Unfortunately I'm dyslexic, which is why I make so many errors, (all of my "edits' are to correct spelling errors). On the up-side it is also why I have a fascination with words and grammar. Big smile
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