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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 14:33 |
Yes, space and time are one entity, but a coordinate of space-time is not virtual (it appears and disappears almost instantaneously). Space-time is real and space-time coordinates exist even if we are not present at (nor have access to) those coordinates. If coordinate t1,x1,y1,z1 no longer exists as soon as we hit coordinate t2,x2,y2,z2, that would violate relativity. What you are saying is that only one t-axis point can exist based on our perception of when we are.
Edited by The Doctor - August 27 2014 at 14:41
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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twseel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2012
Location: abroad
Status: Offline
Points: 22767
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 14:47 |
The Doctor wrote:
Yes, space and time are one entity, but a coordinate of space-time is not virtual (it appears and disappears almost instantaneously). Space-time is real and space-time coordinates exist even if we are not present at (nor have access to) those coordinates. If coordinate t1,x1,y1,z1 no longer exists as soon as we hit coordinate t2,x2,y2,z2, that would violate relativity. What you are saying is that only one t-axis point can exist based on our perception of when we are. |
I dont much about this stuff but I think his point is that at every point in time these different coordinates exist and are relative to each other, but once you actually move towards another coordinate, these coordinates change, as space changes with time, so that the previous point can be approached but not traced back perfectly anymore
Edited by twseel - August 27 2014 at 14:47
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 23 2005
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Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 14:59 |
I understand that if Earth is currently at t1,x1,y1,z1, in the future it will not be at t2,x1,y1,z1, but the x, y and z axes will have changed along with the t-axis and will instead be at point t2,x2,y2,z2. But he seemed to be stating that t1,x1,y1,z1 ceased to exist altogether once t-axis point t2 came into existence.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:03 |
I wasn’t inferring that material from this universe gets
swallowed up by a black hole and is transported to another universe.
Stephen Hawking once suggested that black holes violated the
primary law in physics known as the conservation of information until Leonard
Susskind posed a different view.
My conjecturing is that in a multiverse scenario, black
holes may be portals between universes. Similarly to wormholes being passageways in
space.
Universes probably come and go all the time. They very well may be cyclical.
I’m not particularly fond of the current big bang theory as
it stands today. There are too many holes
with shoddy patchwork.
Is the universe really expanding? Just because everything seems to be moving
away from each other doesn’t necessarily mean the universe is expanding like a
balloon. A couple of unanswered
questions that I have not found any patchwork for, yet:
1- 1 - If space itself is expanding, what is it
expanding into? More space?
2 - If space is expanding then what’s
contracting?
Not sure about what? That the world is getting progressively better? If you look back towards recorded history
there may be ups and downs but overall it’s in an uptick.
Edited by CosmicVibration - August 27 2014 at 15:06
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twseel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2012
Location: abroad
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Points: 22767
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:05 |
The Doctor wrote:
I understand that if Earth is currently at t1,x1,y1,z1, in the future it will not be at t2,x1,y1,z1, but the x, y and z axes will have changed along with the t-axis and will instead be at point t2,x2,y2,z2. But he seemed to be stating that t1,x1,y1,z1 ceased to exist altogether once t-axis point t2 came into existence. |
How does it not cease to exist? As every dimension and everything in the universe moves along to the position belonging to t2, I'd think there wouldn't be anything left that could be seen as belonging to t1. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear, I know I'm bad at explaining
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5153
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:07 |
The Doctor wrote:
Yes, space and time are one entity, but a coordinate of space-time is not virtual (it appears and disappears almost instantaneously). Space-time is real and space-time coordinates exist even if we are not present at (nor have access to) those coordinates.
If coordinate t1,x1,y1,z1 no longer exists as soon as we hit coordinate t2,x2,y2,z2, that would violate relativity. What you are saying is that only one t-axis point can exist based on our perception of when we are. |
I must have explained myself wrongly or you did not understand me. My reply was to CosmicVibration statement that:
'If space and time are interwoven as space/time, I’d imagine it would be possible to go back in time by going back in space. For instance, to travel back 1 year, you would have to trek to the same exact point in space you were one year ago.'
You can not go back to 'the same exact point in space' at a different time. That does not exist. Space exists only combined with time coordinates. The 'exact point in space' you were 1 year ago can not be defined anymore unless you label it as the 'exact point in space-time you were 1 year ago'.
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:08 |
Gerinski wrote:
CosmicVibration wrote:
With wormholes you’re basically punching a hole through
space or space/time. Depending on where exactly the other side of the
Einstein-Rosen bridge ends up, you should be able to go either forwards or
backwards in time. Black holes are a
total mystery; they may even lead to another universe. We may be living inside a black hole, no one
can say for sure. |
Black holes and the stuff they are made of are in our universe, their mass bends our spacetime so clearly the stuff is not 'gone to some other universe', it's still in our universe. General Relativity fails at explaining what happens at their center but that's no reason to invoke esoteric speculations. This is not saying black holes are mundane, I tend to think that they hold some relevant 'meaning' in the structure of spacetime which we do not fully understand yet, but we need not speculate beyond what is necessary. And no, we are certainly not living inside a black hole, where did you get that from?
CosmicVibration wrote:
If space and time are interwoven as space/time, I’d imagine
it would be possible to go back in time by going back in space. For instance, to travel back 1 year, you
would have to trek to the same exact point in space you were one year ago.
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There is no absolute space without time, the universe is expanding, you can not 'go back to 'the same exact point in space you were one year ago', that point in spacetime existed only one year ago and will never exist again (unless the universe is cyclic).
CosmicVibration wrote:
I would not want to go back to earths historical past; it
was filled with even more ignorance than today.
Mostly I’m inferring to spiritual ignorance or spiritual
unawareness. Because of this, barbaric
savagery still plagues a lot of our world, but it is getting better. |
Not so sure... |
I wasn’t inferring that material from this universe gets
swallowed up by a black hole and is transported to another universe.
Stephen Hawking once suggested that black holes violated this
primary law in physics known as the conservation of information until Leonard
Susskind posed a different view.
My conjecturing is that in a multiverse scenario, black
holes may be portals between universes. Similarly to wormholes being passageways in
space.
Universes probably come and go all the time. They very well may be cyclical.
I’m not particularly fond of the current big bang theory as
it stands today. There are too many holes
with shoddy patchwork.
Is the universe really expanding? Just because everything seems to be moving
away from each other doesn’t necessarily mean the universe is expanding like a
balloon. A couple of unanswered
questions that I have not found any patchwork for, yet:
If space itself is expanding, what is it expanding into?
More space?
If space is expanding then what’s contracting?
Not sure about what? That
the world is getting progressively better?
If you look back towards recorded history there may be ups and downs but
overall it’s in an uptick.
Edited by CosmicVibration - August 27 2014 at 15:26
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:12 |
Gerinski wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Yes, space and time are one entity, but a coordinate of space-time is not virtual (it appears and disappears almost instantaneously). Space-time is real and space-time coordinates exist even if we are not present at (nor have access to) those coordinates. If coordinate t1,x1,y1,z1 no longer exists as soon as we hit coordinate t2,x2,y2,z2, that would violate relativity. What you are saying is that only one t-axis point can exist based on our perception of when we are. |
I must have explained myself wrongly or you did not understand me. My reply was to CosmicVibration statement that: <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">'If space and time are interwoven as space/time, I’d imagine it would be possible to go back in time by going back in space.</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">For instance, to travel back 1 year, you would have to trek to the same exact point in space you were one year ago.'</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"></span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">You can not go back to 'the same exact point in space' at a different time. That does not exist. Space exists only combined with time coordinates. The 'exact point in space' you were 1 year ago can not be defined anymore unless you label it as the 'exact point in space-time you were 1 year ago'.</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"></span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"></span> | Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying. My bad.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5153
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:17 |
The Doctor wrote:
I understand that if Earth is currently at t1,x1,y1,z1, in the future it will not be at t2,x1,y1,z1, but the x, y and z axes will have changed along with the t-axis and will instead be at point t2,x2,y2,z2. But he seemed to be stating that t1,x1,y1,z1 ceased to exist altogether once t-axis point t2 came into existence. |
Not at all, that was not my meaning. On the contrary, I tend to believe that 'the future already exists' if you can make correct sense of that statement, which is certainly not obvious and I myself am not really able to explain what does it mean.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:26 |
Whew. Yeah, that was my point that the past and future both exist even though we are not capable of perceiving them at this particular space-time coordinate. Glad I don't have to try to explain that. Don't think I would be able to either (or should that be I don't think I would can either?)
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5153
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 15:28 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
If space itself is expanding, what is it expanding into?
More space?
If space is expanding then what’s contracting? |
Space is only expanding because time is moving forward. It expands into nothing, it just gets bigger.
There is no need for anything to be contracting. We do not know but there are mathematically solid theories which allow a universe to burst out of nothing (although they demand the laws to exist 'prior' to the physical universe). Another view could be that it is time which is contracting in some sense, we are in a countdown. Or it could have something to do with gravity, the only force which seems to be able to contradict the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and decrease entropy.
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 16:25 |
After viewing 5 seasons and almost 50 episodes of Through
the Wormhole with various other science programs I’ve come to this
conclusion. Science, just like religion,
really doesn’t know as to what the hell is actually going on.
There are countless opposing theories with more patchwork
than the windows operating system. Which
ones are right? Some of them are overly complex and make my head spin. Nonetheless,
I dig and entertain them all.
I really think that when the mystery of gravity is fully
understood everything will start to fall into place.
Although I have not bought into any of the explanations of
gravity so far, this episode of Through the Wormhole was particularly
interesting:
7
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"Is Gravity an
Illusion?"
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July 2, 2014
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We feel it every moment of our
lives but for physicists, gravity is the longest running unsolved mystery of
the universe. Why do all objects that have mass pull on one another?
Cutting-edge theories are proposing unexpected answers: Gravity could be
another force in disguise, a thermodynamic mirage, or even, a shadow of a
hidden holographic universe. If so, the force that holds us to the surface of
the earth, and holds the earth in orbit around the sun, may be a trick of the
mind. We feel it, but it may not be real. Is Gravity an Illusion?
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Edited by CosmicVibration - August 27 2014 at 16:28
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 16:28 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
| That is the best explanation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and Entropy that I've ever heard. Good job, CV.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 16:50 |
Perhaps we can take some LSD and take off into outer space? That could qualify as Time Travel.
Edited by King of Loss - August 27 2014 at 16:51
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 17:03 |
Ok, since nobody seems to wants to actually answer the question and all you keep posting is smart responses, I'll be the first one:
September 17th 1442 at 21:31
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5153
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 17:12 |
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PrognosticMind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2014
Location: New Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1195
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 18:12 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
After viewing 5 seasons and almost 50 episodes of Through
the Wormhole with various other science programs I’ve come to this
conclusion. Science, just like religion,
really doesn’t know as to what the hell is actually going on.
There are countless opposing theories with more patchwork
than the windows operating system. Which
ones are right? Some of them are overly complex and make my head spin. Nonetheless,
I dig and entertain them all.
I really think that when the mystery of gravity is fully
understood everything will start to fall into place.
Although I have not bought into any of the explanations of
gravity so far, this episode of Through the Wormhole was particularly
interesting:
7
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"Is Gravity an
Illusion?"
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July 2, 2014
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We feel it every moment of our
lives but for physicists, gravity is the longest running unsolved mystery of
the universe. Why do all objects that have mass pull on one another?
Cutting-edge theories are proposing unexpected answers: Gravity could be
another force in disguise, a thermodynamic mirage, or even, a shadow of a
hidden holographic universe. If so, the force that holds us to the surface of
the earth, and holds the earth in orbit around the sun, may be a trick of the
mind. We feel it, but it may not be real. Is Gravity an Illusion?
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^Epic win.
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"A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?"
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 18:51 |
Yea, I missed it too… What I say, what I say? I want to know;
unless it’s sarcastic. Actually, I still would want to know. I like sarcasm, even if it’s directed towards
me.
There are no wins, just far-reaching and open minded
discussions. And maybe some sarcasm..
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1382
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 18:56 |
The T wrote:
Ok, since nobody seems to wants to actually answer the question and all you keep posting is smart responses, I'll be the first one:
September 17th 1442 at 21:31 |
I’ve already answered the question on page 1.
So, what’s so special about September 17th 1442 @ 21:31? A fond memory from a previous incarnation
perhaps?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: August 27 2014 at 21:18 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
Yea, I missed it too… What I say, what I say? I want to know;
unless it’s sarcastic. Actually, I still would want to know. I like sarcasm, even if it’s directed towards
me.
There are no wins, just far-reaching and open minded
discussions. And maybe some sarcasm..
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When I first opened up the thread after you had posted about Gravity being an illusion, it showed your post as completely blank. I quoted your post directly and there was nothing in it at first. So yeah, it was a joke.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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