Scotland

It's NO!

Of course that 'w**ker' Cameron may just be pretending that he wants the Scots to stay part of the Union.  He may have deliberately left DevoMax off the agenda just so the Scots would leave us.  THus guaranteeing a perpetual Tory Government for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ev.........

^ yeah it's terrible when in the 21st century national feelings may still be shaped by religions, disgraceful

Gerinski wrote: BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British? What would be approximately the current support in NI for a reunion with Southern Ireland?

For Gerinski: As I understand it, which doesn't mean much, simply because they were afforded the opportunity by some crazy politician. The Brits can clue you in better as to how. Something about giving Scotland the right to ask for succession in return of votes.

Edited by SteveG - September 18 2014 at 14:22

BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British?

Gerinski wrote: Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO. The problem is, it is seldom about what the people wants. In the case of East Ukraine it is about the West and Russia fighting for a strategically important piece of land. I don't think neither gives a damn what the people in the region want. Having said that, I think that by the 21st century people's will should be given enough power as to change what they have been imposed by history and by the acts of their long dead ancestors if they so will. But as our Cheese friend says, such a change should require a majority of more than 50% and possibly also sustained in time. It can not be that a state can be broken by a conjunctural situation such as an economic crisis or a heated debate. I would say that the result for independence should be confirmed by repeated referendums during a period of say 5 years and with a majority of around 70%.

Yeah I understad what's happening in Ukraine, but the military and economic technicalities aside I'm asking - European and Americans mainly - do they support, in principle the right of east Ukrainians to determine their own future, even if that means joining Russia, who lets face it are essentally an enemy of the west.

lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO. In principle, Andy, I support the right of groups of people and "nations" to have self determinations. I have always believed that governance at the lowest possible level is best, and I say this as a career civil servant of many years standing. When you are talking about the situation in Ukraine, this has been yet another monumental cock up by the people who "lead" us, by wilfully misunderstanding the Russian psyche, history, and, especially, its "glorious leader", a ravenous power seeker, if ever there was one. What has not helped, of course, is the fact that a pile of his cronies and crooks are almost singularly responsible for most of the dirty money entering our capital city and the terrible way property is being priced out of ordinary people's pockets. I do not, by the way, myself understand why the SNP, or my party, Plaid Cymru, are such ardent Europeans. Why on earth would you want to swap a remote, unaccountable, government for one even more remote, and most certainly a damned sight more unaccountable. Very strange, and, I think, something that will be a source of huge political and social tension in the new era of politics which is dawning.

Indeed, and the positions are fundamentally contradictory; the will for self determination and membership of the EU which should have always been nothing more than a trading block.

I think the SNP and Plaid Cymru are just afraid to be seen as Eurosceptic because the neo liberal establishment and its supportive media portray that position as racist. So, you have to ask what is to be actually gained by allowing politicians and beurocrats from other countries who you have not voted for to vote on laws in your country? What is the benefit and practical upshot to your society to allow that to happen? Power has been devolved to Scotland and Wales. Whether enough has been devolved is for the people of those countries to decide and negotiate with London, but what would happen after a Yes vote and joining the EU if many or even all of those powers were taken away in exchange for an EU policy portfolio? What would the reaction of the Scottish people be, bearing in mind independence is a one way street?

Would Salmond allow the people of Scotland a referendum on EU membership?

Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

akamaisondufromage wrote: Laz Dont mince your words now tell us what you really think!