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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Role of Computers in Prog
    Posted: September 29 2014 at 01:08
LOL


... a man in a skirt. 


LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 19:51
Spirit Of The Glen

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 18:41
Ermm this isn't a "Name every album with bagpipes" thread,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 18:17
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Also Mike Oldfield in the live version of Tubular Bells 2 used bagpipes. It's not so unusual in British and Irish prog

Also prog folk band Dun Aenghus used bagpipes at their excellent Tales of Dun Aenghus the debut album.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 17:07
As far as I'm aware, Frank Zappa gravitated more and more towards using the Synclavier for composing and hearing his compositions during the latter part of his too short life.
The synclavier is a digital sequencer which uses, among other things, samples of real acoustic orchestral instruments.
I wouldn't call what he did, in any way, a cop-out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 13:45
Also Mike Oldfield in the live version of Tubular Bells 2 used bagpipes. It's not so unusual in British and Irish prog
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2014 at 13:06
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Bagpipes? The gap is too wide by Mostly Autumn

Biko by Peter Gabriel. When I saw it performed live, a group of bagpipers proceeded down the aisles of the auditorium.
Great moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 10:25
Thanks, Octopus ! Every day I learn something new. ;-)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 10:16
Bagpipes? The gap is too wide by Mostly Autumn
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 08:31
Smile Well, exactly. 
"It's the artist who makes the music".

If anyone likes prog rock, I'd like to assume that they have an open mind and are more.... selective... in what they listen to, in terms of musicianship. Well, does it really matter what instrument it's played on ?

I've not heard any prog rock played on bagpipes (I don't get out much) but if I did, the only question I'd be asking is "Is it good music ? " 
- you can get VST bagpipes, by the way. Get 'em quick, they're sure to be made illegal soon. ;-)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 04:45
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Also. The hypocrisy is that Keith Emerson, sitting in front of a Moog Modular, is "prog". If he plays on a VST Moog, by the argument, it's no longer prog....... and if he plays on a non analogue synth, let's say a Nord, that's not prog, either. ;-)

I don't know anybody who thinks like that
Well, duh. That's the point. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 04:35
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Also. The hypocrisy is that Keith Emerson, sitting in front of a Moog Modular, is "prog". If he plays on a VST Moog, by the argument, it's no longer prog....... and if he plays on a non analogue synth, let's say a Nord, that's not prog, either. ;-)

I don't know anybody who thinks like that
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 02:12
Let me slightly stir the pot here. 
Robert Fripp. ;-)

Also. The hypocrisy is that Keith Emerson, sitting in front of a Moog Modular, is "prog". If he plays on a VST Moog, by the argument, it's no longer prog....... and if he plays on a non analogue synth, let's say a Nord, that's not prog, either. ;-)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 04:42
Originally posted by Watcher of the Sky Watcher of the Sky wrote:

Well, in my opinion there is no problem to use computers when creating Music, but only when is used to assist the MUSICIAN, like when Steven Wilson is mixing a album for exemple :P

But, use a computer to replace real instruments, no, I disagree with that, I believe good music is made by people who knows how to play instruments and have creativity to create your music there, in the instrument.
A classical composer cannot play every instrument in the orchestra but he can create music for all the musicians to play. His music is not less creative or less good just because he can only compose music using a piano and has to use other musicians to play the violins, violas, cellos, basses, flutes, piccolos, clarinets, oboes, bassoons, trumpets, horns, tubas, etc., those musicians lend their playing ability to the music you hear but not their creativity, that is the composer's creativity alone.

I view computer music in much the same way. The "composer" has created the score and expressed their creativity in the melodies and arrangements but they are using the "computer" as an virtual orchestra of musicians to play it, the computer has lent its playing ability to the music you hear, but it is the "composer's" creativity you are listening to.

I don't see the computer as replacing the real instrument but as a substitute. If I could pay for an orchestra and other real musicians to play my music I most surely would (damnit, I'd dearly love to do that and when I win the Lottery I will). Even if my creativity (and playing ability) cannot be compared to the greats if I could express that creativity using real instruments and real musicians I would not need to use the computer to make that music. I would never make great claims about my music, I like it and it was made for my entertainment, if others like it that is great, if they don't then that is okay too, but every note is mine whether I used a computer or a real instrument to play it.

[to misquote Jasper Carrott - I'd give my right-arm to be able to play the guitar]



Originally posted by Watcher of the Sky Watcher of the Sky wrote:


That's my opinion about that, sorry for grammar mistakes, I'm still learning
Your grammar is faultless, my Portuguese is non-existent. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 01:33
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

As far as the modern music.. I was referring to LIVE music.  400K kids out at some Techno fest over in Europe this summer.  That is the Woodstock of this head down generation.  The children of the Atari generation and Playstation generation.

I just hope some future generation looks at the crap their parents were listening to and say.." you're kidding right?

Ask any 15 year old kid what they like and they will start talking about "beat's and groove's" 
It's computer generated garbage.  I never thought I would want to be a communist but if there was a country that would ban all that crap I would move there.  Only original music allowed.  No sampling or loops allowed.  All bands must play at least 20% of their music in odd meters.  No guns, no drum machines.  10 years in prison for either.  


How can you be sure that next time we will not prohibit the real instruments and recording studios as a bourgeois privilege and allow only computers, as a matter that is available to the proletariatLOL




Edited by Svetonio - September 26 2014 at 01:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 01:28
Well, in my opinion there is no problem to use computers when creating Music, but only when is used to assist the MUSICIAN, like when Steven Wilson is mixing a album for exemple :P

But, use a computer to replace real instruments, no, I disagree with that, I believe good music is made by people who knows how to play instruments and have creativity to create your music there, in the instrument.

That's my opinion about that, sorry for grammar mistakes, I'm still learning
Nous sommes du soleil
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 00:16
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music?
Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques?
A lot of very loaded questions but with the increasing prevalence of computer-enhanced music being generated today, I'm just searching for the insights and opinions of other music lovers with regards to this phenomenon. Obviously computers are here to stay, and computers have allowed a access to publication of one's musical ideas to a far larger segment of the population, but, overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing? Is the quality keeping up with the quantity? Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s? Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?




As Progressive rock was / is always open to almost anything that can be an instrument in some moment of a creative process, a computer as instrument(s) as well, is welcome same as it was that usage (so revolutionary) of the studio as an instrument by The Beatles in favour to create their early prog as well. Personally, I don't feel any loss of artistic integrity if / when a progressive rock music of today is created on computer. Of course, only if the final product is fine. It all depends on the artist's talent actually.
Yea, a computer just imitate the real instruments, but wasn't that the case with Mellotron also?  And, finally, wasn't Mellotron accepted that much by prog bands and the fans because it doesn't sound exactly like the real instruments (or a real choir) i.e. it produced its own, original sound, so mystical and beautiful?


Edited by Svetonio - September 26 2014 at 05:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2014 at 16:54
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Synths produce an amazing Hammond sound too, pc's I do not know much nor much about any of all this, I am most curious tho' and very interested in all your comments, you guys just made it even more confusing now really    hugs

A PC can play basically any sound a digital synth can generate. In a PC workstation you can upload libraries of sounds (which can be sampled from real sounds into digital or generated directly digitally, so you can have whatever you want, Moogs, Hammonds, clarinets, bells, you name it (plucked string instruments such as guitars are however extremely difficult to render realistically). You then assign which sound you want each track to play. For the notes to be played you can either input them using a keyboard or other instrument with digital interface, or you can write them directly with the computer keyboard. You can also introduce all the subtle effects you can do on a physical keyboard synth such as pitch-bends, key velocity, modulation, vibrato etc, but programming all these one by one can be very time consuming if you want a result which sounds reasonably natural.
I understand the reasons for people generating their music with a computer (I have done too as shown in my post above), but if you want a good-sounding final product I'm afraid that often that can take much more time than recording from real instruments, because programming all the subtleties that you do naturally when playing an instrument can be very time consuming.


Now this is why I love coming here! Thank you very much for this explanation, Gerinski   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2014 at 08:34
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

BTW Dean, as I said, it is extremely difficult to get a "natural" sounding electric guitar from a computer sound library (nylon or acoustic guitars are a bit better but still unsatisfactory). Intuitively I understand why that is, but I can not express it in technical words, I would appreciate your technical knowledge to explain why guitars digital renditions are so disappointing compared to those of other instruments.
Good question. I suspect it is partly because a guitar is not a perfect instrument. Before I expand on that...

...another pointless anecdote:
Years ago I bought a Yamaha Portasound keyboard, these used FM synthesis and sounded great. While I was show my new toy to a friend of mine (who was an excellent piano player and a good guitarist) I pointed out that disappointingly the "guitar" preset didn't sound much like a guitar, and demonstrated that by playing a few bars of Life On Mars, "See" I said, "it sounds like a keyboard". He smiled and said, "that's because you are playing it like one". He took the keyboard from me and played it. Low and behold it sounded a hell of a lot more guitar-like when he played it, not exactly like a guitar, but enough to make me hear that the guitar preset was indeed a guitar sound.

...anyway. A guitar is not a perfect instrument...what do I mean by that? Unlike a concert violinist in an orchestra, a guitarist is not trying to make his guitar sound exactly like every other guitar. While the violinist strives to play the perfect ideal note, the guitarist has no truck with that. A sampled "perfect" guitar note played on a midi-keyboard will be perfect every time, guitars aren't like that because that's not how guitarists play them. As you observed, a sampled acoustic guitar is better, not much, but better and that's partly due to our expectations of how an acoustic guitar should be played and how it should sound, with each note approaching the perfect ideal note.

In my earlier pointless anecdote I explained that I modelled a guitar using 6 modules, one for each string, but there was more to it than that. A guitar is, as we know, polyphonic so it can play more than one note at once, even when playing with a plectrum picking single notes one at a time the sound is polyphonic with each string adding to the total sound. However, each string is monophonic - if I play a C on one string and then an E on another I will get a chord but if I play the C on one string and then an E on the same string I do not. This is a very obvious thing when you read it, it isn't quite so obvious when you play it on a polyphonic keyboard or computer score. When a guitarist solos he uses all strings with some notes still ringing out as the next is played on a different string and some not if they are on the same string, this is something that is quite difficult (or perhaps even impossible) on a keyboard. But on the computer score you can do this quite easily so I programmed my six guitar modules to be monophonic and carefully chose which note to put on which "string", deciding which notes I wanted to harmonise and which I didn't.

The other difference that the sampled keyboard has difficulty coping with is the other simple observation that an "E" played on the open top "E" string sounds different to the same "E" played on the 5th fret of the "B" string and that in turn sounds different again when played on the 9th fret of the "G" string (and so on for the D & bottom E string). On a keyboard all these notes sound exactly the same because they are the same, there is only one E2 key on the keyboard. My solution couldn't really cope with that, but I could at least make each "open" string sound tonally different to its neighbour. [this is something that some people forget when layering many copies of the same instrument in Cubase or whatever, two violin modules playing the same score does not sound like two violins, it sounds like one violin played twice as loud].

Well... there is loads more to it than that and I could prattle on about sympathetic vibration and formant and stuff like that, but I hope I've explained it as clearly as it is in my head.


Edited by Dean - September 25 2014 at 08:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2014 at 07:17
BTW Dean, as I said, it is extremely difficult to get a "natural" sounding electric guitar from a computer sound library (nylon or acoustic guitars are a bit better but still unsatisfactory). Intuitively I understand why that is, but I can not express it in technical words, I would appreciate your technical knowledge to explain why guitars digital renditions are so disappointing compared to those of other instruments.
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