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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 21:11
Surrealist wrote:
The only way to cram more on to a side is to heavily compress the audio as this reduces the lateral excursions (wiggle) in the groove. Albums that have 30+ minutes per side sound flat and lifeless because they lack dynamic range.Wow, Dean and I actually agree on something. Get out the party hats!
Very true...but once the first 20:00 are done I am too involved to dissect the last 3-4 minutes
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 21:16
Surrealist wrote:
As far as the modern music.. I was referring to LIVE music. 400K kids out at some Techno fest over in Europe this summer. That is the Woodstock of this head down generation. The children of the Atari generation and Playstation generation.
I just hope some future generation looks at the crap their parents were listening to and say.." you're kidding right?
Ask any 15 year old kid what they like and they will start talking about "beat's and groove's" It's computer generated garbage. I never thought I would want to be a communist but if there was a country that would ban all that crap I would move there. Only original music allowed. No sampling or loops allowed. All bands must play at least 20% of their music in odd meters. No guns, no drum machines. 10 years in prison for either.
Your knowledge of music is underwhelming, almost as good as your ability to pull random made-up numbers out of thin air. I struggle to take anything you post seriously at the best of times but this is your best by far.
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 03:22
Surrealist wrote:
Analog synths are not digital sampling machines.
It ends there.. if you sample you go to jail for ten years!
*sigh*
Digital synths are not digital sampling machines
It begins here... Digital Synthesis for Complete Idiots 101.
It is a misconception that digital synthesisers are sampling machines, they are not. A sampler is a different animal, just as a clarinet is not an oboe and a trombone is not a trumpet - the Mellotron is a sampling machine, it is not a synthesiser nor is it a Hammond organ. The Hammond organ was originally a mechanic sampling machine using tonewheels to emulate the sound of real instruments. Electronic pianos are sample-based and since a piano use two or more strings per note the more sophisticated ones sample each individual string to construct the final note. Samplers are a completely different instrument to a digital synthesiser. Does using a Mellotron, Hammond or Electronic piano carry a 10 year jail sentence?
To emulate an analogue synth by sampling would require sampling every sound that the synth was capable of making, and clearly that is impossible. The Arturia Moog Modular V that Dave showed earlier does not use samples, it is an Analogue Modelling Synth and it models the electronics of the Moog exactly so that every knob, switch and patch does exactly what the same knob, switch and patch does on a physical Moog and therefore creates sounds in exactly the same way but in a virtual environment. No Samples. Other techniques for digital synthesis exist that are also not based upon sampling, such as FM synthesis, additive and subtractive synthesis (which is what analogue synths do), phase distortion synthesis, waveguide synthesis and formant synthesis. All these digital synths generate the tones that you hear mathematically using computer algorithms instead of electronics, they also do not use samples.
When you combine the technology of the sampler with the signal processing of the digital synth you get a the sample-based digital synthesiser. This does use wave samples to create the basic tones that are then modified by computer algorithms to create completely new sounds. These are not sampling machines either, the wavetables are merely the seed that creates the fundamental tone and the sound they produce sounds nothing like a sampled instrument.
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 03:27
He's right, you know, folks. ;-)
It's all very complicated, really. What happens with non musicians is that they tend to get the impression that making music with a plethora of electronic gubbins is easy, therefore they get upset and think that all electronic / computer devices produce bad music.
Not so. Bad musicians produce bad music, whether they've got a digital sampler, a Moog Modular, a sackbut or a kazoo. The tendency is to think that "it's easy to make music using computers".
Try it. Two year minimum learning curve for Cubase before you're really aware of what you're doing. To try and maintain interest on a computer generated / studio generated album is difficult: you have to learn all kinds of tricks (such as automation) which subtly hold the attention of the listener...... who won't really even hear you're doing it. All subliminal and subtle. If people think we're just pressing keys..... no. At one point on one album, I had 24 instruments playing, almost an entire electronic orchestra. What I do is composition, which is far removed from what kiddies with a cracked copy of Fruity Loops and some crappy dance music samples get up to.
MIDI can be an infathomable minefield at times. Getting two MIDI equipped computers to properly synch up is occasionally ... interesting. Even with the Moog Modular VST instrument above, the manual is about 168 pages thick and trying to even explain analogue patchboard synths to a non muso would take hours and bore you to death. ;-)
Edited by Davesax1965 - September 24 2014 at 03:33
Joined: June 25 2013
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 03:42
Davesax1965 wrote:
MIDI can be an infathomable minefield at times. Getting two MIDI equipped computers to properly synch up is occasionally ... interesting. Even with the Moog Modular VST instrument above, the manual is about 168 pages thick and trying to even explain analogue patchboard synths to a non muso would take hours and bore you to death. ;-)
I tried yesterday the Moog Modular VST you mencioned and it's really cool, I had so much fun Is there a way to play the keyboard without the mouse? I'd like to turn the knobs while I'm playing.
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 03:45
Davesax1965 wrote:
He's right, you know, folks. ;-)
It's all very complicated, really. What happens with non musicians is that they tend to get the impression that making music with a plethora of electronic gubbins is easy, therefore they get upset and think that all electronic / computer devices produce bad music.
Not so. Bad musicians produce bad music, whether they've got a digital sampler, a Moog Modular, a sackbut or a kazoo.
Cheers Dave
A pointless anecdote:
When I first started constructing music using computers the one thing I was unhappy with was the guitar sound, so I printed out the score and attempted to play it on my Kramer but it was too difficult for my limited playing skills.. I then asked a guitarist friend of mine to play it for me, which he duly did and after a lot of swearing and fumbled notes, he got it note perfect, so I recorded it and mixed it back into my piece of music and everything was lovely. One thing I noticed when he played the piece was I'd not taken into account the simple fact that a guitar has six strings and a guitarists hands cannot span from the 1st fret to the 12th simultaneously. Using that simple observation from then on I modelled the guitar using six guitar modules, one for each string, and put a lot of careful thought into which notes could be played and which could not. Now the guitar tracks sounded far more natural and I could play chords that sounded right, I could also arpeggio and rake those chords if I so desired and that sounded more like a real guitar than using a single polyphonic module. Also, when I then printed out the score I found I could play it, albeit poorly.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 03:52
Ah, well, in that case I'll fess up to not playing doumbek too well (Goblet drum). There are 3 types of notes you can get out of a doumbek - "doum" - flat slap of master hand - "tek" - tap rim of drum, master hand, "ka" - tap rim of drum, weak hand.
doum doum tek ka tek doum tek ka tek, doum doum tek ka tek, doum tek ka tek etc
I took pity on the neighbours, recorded a few notes and cut them up in Cubase. Same effect. "Example of technology assisting the struggling musician and his long suffering neighbours". ;-)
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 04:01
[/QUOTE] I tried yesterday the Moog Modular VST you mencioned and it's really cool, I had so much fun Is there a way to play the keyboard without the mouse? I'd like to turn the knobs while I'm playing. [/QUOTE]
Hi Meltdowner, there are quite a few more VST instruments on that link, and there are actually tons of free VST instruments on the internet. (Google vst instruments - lots are rubbish, there are some good ones.)
To play without a mouse -
If you have a look for a MIDI keyboard on eBay, you can get some good second hand ones for about £20. New generations come out, everyone gets rid of their old ones. Basically, you want a USB one. 25 keys OK, 49 keys better. Plug in the keyboard, start up the VST, set it (in preferences) to use the keyboard.
For twiddling knobs, there are also MIDI controllers which just use knobs and sliders, which is great fun. Google "omnitronic FAD 9" and there's an example. Not very expensive. ;-)
Away you go. ;-) You can then record it using something like Cubase (very expensive) or Reaper (but it's getting very complicated. ;-) ) www.reaper.fm - free trial, you can use it uncrippled, it's not very expensive, but takes a long time to learn. You don't need it just for twiddling with. ;-)
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 04:08
PS It just struck me that VST instruments are the modern equivalent of what happened to music.... when the original analogue synths came out at the end of the 1960's.
Technology moves on. For some people. ;-)
Just a thought, would anyone out there like a thread (later) about how to get started with electronic music and recording ??????
Edited by Davesax1965 - September 24 2014 at 05:05
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 09:52
Davesax1965 wrote:
Reaper
I actually record most of my demos on Reaper. Rock stuff mostly. I've never delved into electronic music on anything but GarageBand (sub-par software it may be, it's still pretty effective when you're downloading any free plug-ins you can find). I've not found Reaper too hard to use, but it did take me an hour or so to figure out how to turn on the darn monitor.
By the way, if anyone is doubting the work and skill that good electronic producers put into their music, I think Aphex Twin's newest track puts that idea to rest:
Edited by Polymorphia - September 24 2014 at 11:21
Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: September 24 2014 at 12:22
All my respect for those using the computer to entirely (or in a very significant part) create and record their music as a final product. I am aware that mastering them takes a lot of time and skill, that is not in question, my full respect for that.
But I still prefer the musician who spends his time trying to master playing real instruments (I respect cases like Dean where he felt he better use a computer than not playing at all or playing not too well). Rob Reed could be an example, he has recently recorded his Tubular Bells tribute Sanctuary, all playing real instruments, and that can also be recorded in a relatively cheap home studio (besides the fact, of course, that having the actual instruments available may not always be easy or cheap). As I said you can still play a VST instrument from a real keyboard and that's not expensive. Or play an electronic drum kit rather than programming the drums note by note in MIDI.
It's ages that I don't play but when I did, I used Cubasis (the amateur, little brother of Cubase) only to compose and to produce demo songs for my band, for then playing them all together with real instruments. This is one example, completely generated with Cubase, it's obviously not intended to be a final product and therefore it's not polished in any sense, I didn't even care to record as audio what I could play on a real guitar or a bass etc, everything is computer, it was just for demo purposes to the other band mates.
It's nowhere what Dean's music is (which is intended as a final product) or what many others of you surely do, it's just to show the use of what the computer technology can do just to help in the composition and demo song process to band mates before going into real instruments.
BTW, last section unashamedly influenced by Supper's Ready
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Posted: September 25 2014 at 01:36
This thread is becoming more complex with every comment here above, pc's have automated sounds, so do synthesizers. Yes not black and white as I just stated above. Synths are often used also to produce i.e. brass instrumental sounds among others, completely acceptable in normal standards. These days we also have electric drum kits and these are very sophisticated by electric I do not mean drum sound made by pressing buttons on the pc as it's actually a real full set up drum kit. I don't think I am hearing voices in my head or anything like that but I believe that I can clearly hear/ distinguish acoustic drums compared to electric when playing in an album. Synths produce an amazing Hammond sound too, pc's I do not know much nor much about any of all this, I am most curious tho' and very interested in all your comments, you guys just made it even more confusing now really hugs
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Posted: September 25 2014 at 01:45
I think most important when producing an album, besides the musicianship, is the mixing even more so than the mastering in my mind t be honest. The timing, pauses, layers, position of instrumentals and or vocals on whatever side of your ears, the layering everything plays a major role, the mastering comes next and hopefully it is not compressed to death by ending up not having any clear middle section due to a wall of sound and because of that compression that some bands add it becomes tiresome because there are is no high points, no growth or special chicken skin (goose bumps)producing moments and one tends to lose interest very quickly especially with prog songs as they are considerably longer.
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Posted: September 25 2014 at 03:54
Once upon a time there were troupes of unnoticed and underpaid musicians called studio orchestras. These guys played all the music on recordings of all the popular singers, they were in great demand and always in employment and Mum and Dad and Aunty Joan and little Jimmy and Suzy loved it. But as they grew older Jimmy and Suzy wanted their own music and invented skiffle and rock and roll so they could rock around the clock and twist and shout and generally upset Mum and Dad and Aunty Joan. Realising that there was a huge market for this rebellious rock and roll music the people who recorded Pop records started to record this new music but noticed that drums and guitar as played by teenage pop musicians could sound thin and weak on record so they called in the studio orchestra to fill-out the sound and make the tunes sound fuller and richer. While individually these orchestra musicians didn't get paid much, when there are 20 or 40 of them in a studio orchestra the production bill soon added up and everything got a little expensive. Also, the problem for the Pop musician in all this was the studio orchestra was just a little too staid and safe for the exciting world of Pop music, it was still the music of Mum and Dad and Aunty Joan. What they needed was a cheap way of "padding" out recordings without employing a 40 piece orchestra, 'hmmm', they thought, 'what if we recorded all the notes the studio orchestra can make and put them in a box with a keyboard' ... enter stage left the Mellotron, exeunt stage right the hapless studio orchestra. Now the pop musicians themselves could create the rich full sound of a studio orchestra and Pop Music could grow hairs on its chest and zits started erupting on its face, adolescence had arrived full of teenage angst and rebellion, the carefree childhood of Pop and become the aggressive arrogance of Rock. With all the brashness of youth and having vanquished the studio orchestra some of these spotty Rock musicians had the audacity to use their Hammonds and Mellotrons to take on the full concert orchestra. Roll over Beethoven indeed.
Even the upstart Synthesiser thought it could muscle in on the act, "Please let me play, I can make a violin sound, listen" ... bzzzzzzzzz-whooosh-wee-ooooo ... "oops, sorry, let me twiddle these knobs et voilą, the bassoon:" bzzzzzzz-hmmmmmmmmmm, "erm... I'll be at the back if you need me".
Despondent at only being allowed to make eerie sound effects on pop records, or sounding like a bassoonist using a leaf-blower to clear the autumn leaves¹, the Synthesiser went back to the drawing board and set about becoming the best studio orchestra that money could buy, it learnt to make all the sounds of the orchestra, it learnt to play with all ten fingers instead of just one and it took voice training lessons so it could sing in tune; And just like the kid who got sand kicked in his face by the bigger boys, it got tougher and fitter and fought back against the bullies... it could now appear on Stars In There Eyes, "Tonight Matthew I am going to be the Mighty Mellotron" [audience applauds like demented sea lions]. The lumbering Hammond and the temperamental Mellotron retreated in defeat, they sat at home looking after the ageing Granny Piano while the victorious Synthesiser, now using the snappy stage name of "Synth", toured the world. But the Synthesiser's moment in the limelight was short lived and all too brief, its new Rock musician chums grew impatient of all the knob twiddling and patching every night, "can't you do that at the push of a button?" they asked. It slunk back to the lab and drew up new plans for world domination. It called on the studio orchestra, now living in a retirement home for the musically insane,
"Hey guys, you know that thing you did in the 60s..."
"Playing Las Vegas with Elvis and Frank?" they replied, hopefully.
"No, the other thing... "
"Oh, you mean that thing that put us out of work" [sigh]
"Yeah, that thing, could you do it again?"
"How much?"
"Erm, this time we'll record you individually too... so every one gets a solo ..."
"So that's more money then?"
"Yeah, I suppose..."
Digging deep into its pockets the Synth paid the studio musicians with the lint-covered half eaten boiled sweets it found there, promising to come back and pay them in full once it was rich and famous (which it never did of course for they all had died waiting). Equipped with thousands of notes in all shapes and colours the Sythn squeezed them into its memory banks. "Huzzah" it cried, "I have become the Studio Orchestra!" mwahahaha-whooosh-wee-ooooo-hmmmmmm
And they all lived happily. (Ever after).
The End.
...or is it?
¹ orchestral man hoovers in the park... do keep up at the back.
Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: September 25 2014 at 04:39
^ Nice story Dean
The next chapter will possibly be that we will be able to generate whatever sound we imagine directly from our minds, without actually needing to play anything physical. A mind scanner will send the trigger to a synth.
Joined: September 10 2010
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Posted: September 25 2014 at 04:42
Gerinski wrote:
^ Nice story Dean
The next chapter will possibly be that we will be able to generate whatever sound we imagine directly from our minds, without actually needing to play anything physical. A mind scanner will send the trigger to a synth.
hahahahaha Gerinsky hahaha!!! hahaha!!! hahaha!!! Leave my favorite Grumpy alone but hahahaha!! You made me laugh so much now lol you cheeky sod hahaha!! hugs
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The Role of Computers in Prog
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Surrealist wrote:
Your knowledge of music is underwhelming, almost as good as your ability to pull random made-up numbers out of thin air. 
hugs 
