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Davesax1965 
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Joined: May 23 2013
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 Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:40 |
Afraid that's true. ;-)
I can tell the difference between MP3 320 and WAV formats, only just. I've been playing musical instruments since I was 10. I can tell when a note is 1/25th of a semitone out of tune.
Believe you me, not many people can hear differences in music quality, except on Youtube vids. ;-)
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:45 |
 Guldbamsen wrote:
Ninja'd by the Steve  |
We'll call it a tie.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Davesax1965
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:48 |
This is a Paiste 80 symphonic gong. $30,000. Only six made. The nearest one to me is about 6000 miles away.
So, I'm going to start my next album off with one. Do I (a) Spend $30k ? ($24k at Gongs Unlimited, bargain) (b) then ship it across the Atlantic ? (c) Hire one out, as if I could find one
or (d) USE A SAMPLED SOUND
- well, I wonder what the answer is there. ;-)
"What's this got to do about computers ? " Well, if I do use a sampled sound, someone has done the work for me, so long as it's good enough. If I did have a gong shipped over...... I'd just be hitting it with a beater *and then sampling the sound myself and putting it into the computer anyway*............ (doh)
So the difference in sound quality (negligable) is only something an "audiophile" would hear - or think he hears - in a live environment.
Live environments do not reproduce sound well. You get splashback off walls, reverb, reflection.... been to a gig with good sound quality recently ? So. What are the audiophiles on about ? They actually don't hear sound as well as they think. If you want to hear the instrument LIVE and not recorded in any way by any source, go to a recording studio, with a gong... yourself. Cost about $35k, all in, I should expect. ;-))))))
As I think I mentioned, bring on the computer. Bring on samples. Just use them well.
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:51 |
HolyMoly wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
Ninja'd by the Steve |
We'll call it a tie.
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Allright my friend - you're on
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Davesax1965
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:53 |
Good tie. ;-)
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HolyMoly
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:22 |
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The thing I like the most about computers and their relationship to music making is how it has opened up the process of releasing music to just about anybody. Lots of people complain that this results in a lot of crap, but it also results in a lot of ingenuity that would otherwise never have been allowed release. The idea of music being "free" may harm those who seek to make a living from music (or at least cover their own costs), but the bright side of this is that hundreds of thousands of people are now recording and releasing music (cheaply, and for fun) with no commercial considerations at all, and this has allowed a lot of interesting stuff to seep through. It takes a while to find it, but it's there. And some of it is incredible.
Edited by HolyMoly - September 23 2014 at 09:22
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2826
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:22 |
Good post. ;-)
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HolyMoly
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:23 |
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Good day :-)
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Davesax1965
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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2826
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:28 |
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Gerinski
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Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:38 |
Talking about "computers in music" is too broad, we should be more specific. The discussion has wandered through things so diverse as using sampled or VST instruments vs "real" ones, actually playing an instrument or programming it and letting a computer do the playing, using a computer DAW as an aid in the composition process, analog vs digital in the recording and playback process, listening with headphones or "feeling the music in your body"... too many different subjects.
In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music".
There is no question that computers offer many benefits to musicians and do not imply music of worse or better quality. Having said that, I'm not a fan of excessively electronic music, and while I have no problem with a few computer generated sections, sequencer parts etc, I like the idea that a musician should play what he records. It's a different thing to use a VST Moog sound patch but play it on a controller keyboard yourself and recording it as an audio track than just writing the notes and other trigger messages on a MIDI track and letting the computer play it. I can understand the motivations for the latter but I prefer the former.
I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician".
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Davesax1965
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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:52 |
"
In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music"." Yes, the argument is too broad.
"I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician"."
Gerinski, absolutely. I know so many people like that that it's untrue. Luckily, they produce such bad music that after about four bars, you click on something else on the internet. ;-)
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Polymorphia
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:09 |
 There were so many blues musicians back in the day who did not know what they were playing and yet we still call them musicians. Sequencers and drum machines and DAW's are just instruments. Your friend's music might be bad, but if he's in the business of creating music, I'd still class him as a musician.
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Davesax1965
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Location: UK
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:11 |
I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-) It really is another post, to be honest. Possible earthquake, there ! |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:25 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
So. What are the audiophiles on about ? They actually don't hear sound as well as they think.
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Thinking isn't one of their strong points either 
...sorry, couldn't resist.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:39 |
I actually met one who had his house rewired to stop mains hum.......
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Polymorphia
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:45 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-)It really is another post, to be honest. Possible earthquake, there ! |
And a well-worn one I would think. I happen to like electronic music, though, if you couldn't tell. A lot of producers I like had skills outside of that, granted. Fun fact: electronic/hip-hop producer Flying Lotus is actually John Coltrane's grandnephew.
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Davesax1965
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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:47 |
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Oh, I love that factoid, Polymorphia. ;-)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Location: Europe
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:53 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
"
In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music"." Yes, the argument is too broad.
"I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician"."
Gerinski, absolutely. I know so many people like that that it's untrue. Luckily, they produce such bad music that after about four bars, you click on something else on the internet. ;-) |
Davesax1965 wrote:
I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-)
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I'm going to fess-up here. I'm not a musician and I will never call myself one, my playing skills are terrible and I have long since come to accept that I lack the necessary manual dexterity to ever be good with any instrument, whatever inherent natural skill it is that musicians have, I was born without it. I can get an instrument to make a sound but that is as far as it goes, even after months of practice I never got any better, even those who were kind enough and patient enough to try and teach me had to accept defeat.
But I know music and I know where the notes are, I know what music should sound like and I know how to make the music I can imagine in my head appear on the screen and out through the speakers. When composing with a computer I am no twiddler but I will not call myself a composer either, I construct music, note by note, bar by bar, instrument by instrument - I am a constructor and a programmer, I know what I am and what my abilities (and limitations) are. Creating original music using a computer enabled me to achieve something that I could never do in the real world, and as I said back on page one, I'm rather proud of that.
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 17:11 |
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DaveSax65,
Your points are well taken. It's really hard to make a great prog album
today. Anyone toying around with digital simulators, sure it's good
fun, and so are video games. Drummers who can groove in odd meter are a
rarity. The jazz guys won't do it because they are jazz guys and
anything rock associated is looked down upon. The rock guys want to do
it but can't usually because they don't have the foot training to pull
it off.
Prog died when it lost it's foothold in the live world. The great Prog
bands could do it live.. and in the era before sampling, this was
revered and respected. Once drum machines came along and the 80's new
wave bands starting bringing auto beats onto the stage and the record
companies saw that these bands were drawing well... game over.
If you are listening to computer generated Prog, it's really no
different than what is coming out of LA studios like Nicki Minjia or
whatever. No one is playing anything, It's all samples and bullsh*t.
Quantization of drums and bass are just standard protocol now. Just get
the notes down and fix it on the computer in pro tools or other silly
digital editing software. This is elevator music. They used to call it
Muzak ... the crap you would hear in the shopping mall. The youth
culture that once supported live interesting creative music is now going
to techno festivals because the live music they see basically sucks... I
mean typical local venue stuff. Same old crap.
So here is the deal...
Techno/ rap/ hip hop crap is now 80% of the market. 20% is still live
music. Of that 20% half of the bands are cover bands or tribute bands
playing the same tired crap. So now we have 10% of the market for
original live music and that is having to cover ALL Genres.. rock,
blues, jazz, classical, avant guard etc. Then you try to post in
youtube and 5 people view your page. Your lost in the zillions of post
of kids putting up Apple Garage Band crap that sounds perfectly produced
but just dies when it hits your ears because it's completely dulled
over and stripped on any life or feel.
You pay $1000 to book a decent venue for 3 quality prog acts and 20
people show up and all want a comp admittance because they slept with
the drummer last week.
Original live music is nearly dead. Creative original live music is even more dead.
Cover and tribute bands are nothing more than "paint by numbers". In
the local art scene here .... lots of painters doing different stuff...
and everyone applauds their work and creativity. But if you are in a
band, these same people just want to dance to the hits or sing R and B
or whatever and musicians are support to make sure everyone has a good
time and just pander to the audience.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
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Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:02 |
Surrealist wrote:
Same old crap. |
So it appears.
Surrealist wrote:
Techno/ rap/ hip hop crap is now 80% of the market.
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...or 5% if you use actual statistics instead of guesswork.
But let's not allow stupid things like facts and figures get in the way eh?
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The Role of Computers in Prog
