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micky View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2016 at 18:22
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Is our power grid really in as bad of shape as they say, Mick?  Falling apart and ripe for hacking?  Or is that a case of the media sensationalism?


that is a area that is over my head and of my experience and expertise Jim. My job is set firmly between distribution and the customers per se. From those that do know, that I've talked to, it is like a lot of our infrastructure. Not enough investment in aging systems, who wants to spend money on it. It is like global warming.. when you have politicians only seeing the 5 feet in front their faces (ie getting relected) then you get the bullsh*t of cutting taxes and revenue and pushing off problems hopefully that won't arise until the current officeholders are safely retired or dead.

hacking? Oh yeah... look at what happened in the Ukraine. That is very much a concern...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2016 at 21:33
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I like it Matt.  I've been working my ass off non stop since 1979 and I'm tired, ready to throw in the towel.  Not that I can afford to reallyLOL

Most people can't. LOLCry I am only 25 but I am already exhausted to the bone at the idea of having to work just to survive for the rest of my life.



I hear ya man.  Hang in there, you only gotta pull the cart another 50 years or so.  LOL 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2016 at 21:39
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

My last experience with almost full-time work (teaching Italian to military people) was so devastating that I have developed an aversion to work - and I was brought up by two very hard-working parents, who instilled in me the belief that work is one of the most important (if not the most important) forms of self-realization. I am still recovering from that experience, which nearly destroyed my self-esteem and did a lot of damage to my relationship with my fellow human beings. At my age, it's not really worth it any more.


So sorry to hear that Raff, I've dealt with an untenable situation myself the last couple years.  The effects of stress on a person do damage.  I hope very much the pain recedes for you. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2016 at 21:49
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


Coincidentally, I've come across an essay today titled The Abolition of Work. It is pretty interesting.

Interesting that the article mentions third world peasant bastions and specifically India.  India still has a very large proportion of its population living in villages and predominantly occupied in agriculture.  The govt should do everything it can to empower the farmer and this ironically entails embracing free market policies - just letting the farmer sell his produce to whoever he desires and at a price of his choosing instead of regulating farm produce to subsidise industry and consumers at the expense of the farmer.  Also, to bring urban amenities to the villages so they don't NEED to come to the city.  Instead, economists are hell bent on advocating ways to shift more population to the cities which would not only be wasteful and destructive (of the environment) but borderline ruinous in the coming age of automation.  A farmer living in a village does not need a high level of income to subsist because the farm produce also provides for him and his family's needs.  It's a model ideally suited to a dystopian future where there are few blue or white collar jobs to go around and ways need to be invented to help people spend their time fruitfully in cities.  But no, we want dumb-smart cities that will have politicians and contractors laughing all the way to the bank while exerting a still greater toll on our natural resources and displacing farmers.  Not to mention the small detail of pushing a few more species of flora and fauna to extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 06:24
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The liberal lefty in me likes the idea of pulling people out of poverty but the conseravtive in me doesn't like the idea of encouraging laziness. Would it do that, and would the devil make work for idle hands etc?

Well I guess it would depend on how you define laziness and work. If you just mean it as either working for an employer or not, then there would be more laziness. But if you were to consider the usefulness of the particular job for the rest of society, then I think an absence of useless jobs wouldn't be a bad thing. A garbage collector will always be useful, but there are many bureaucratic jobs that don't necessarily contribute to anything. Here is an article on that subject.

Apparently PA's censor still catches naughty words in urls for some reason.



By laziness I mean choosing not to work at all. It's that simple. I know one person, a woman in her late thirties who believes that people should be allowed to opt out of working completely if they so wish and live funded entirely by the state. Apart from being a bone idle, spoilt as a child narcicist she is able bodied.

Sometimes problems cant be solved simply by slinging money at them. Especially if it's devalued worthless money.

I don't know. Maybe it's a good idea, but I think implementing such a policy would be disastrously complex and probably unworkable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 07:46
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Is our power grid really in as bad of shape as they say, Mick?  Falling apart and ripe for hacking?  Or is that a case of the media sensationalism?


that is a area that is over my head and of my experience and expertise Jim. My job is set firmly between distribution and the customers per se. From those that do know, that I've talked to, it is like a lot of our infrastructure. Not enough investment in aging systems, who wants to spend money on it. It is like global warming.. when you have politicians only seeing the 5 feet in front their faces (ie getting relected) then you get the bullsh*t of cutting taxes and revenue and pushing off problems hopefully that won't arise until the current officeholders are safely retired or dead.

hacking? Oh yeah... look at what happened in the Ukraine. That is very much a concern...

Being in the power quality world (installing and troubleshooting UPS units, power conditioners, filters, PQ meters, etc...) for over 30 years here in the US, I believe hacking is much more of a serious threat than an old grid since most everything is processor/programming and network controlled, although I agree with Mickey.  There are some areas where not enough investment has been made, especially by the power companies themselves.  They will squeeze the last drop out of antiquated equipment until it is beyond repair.  Although I think our grid is in better physical shape than much of the international community.

This thread has been interesting to follow and has taken some different directions.  I fall into the middle somewhere as I understand and see each view, but I would not trust the extremists on each end of the spectrum.  Those wanting something for nothing and abusing the system, then those that would exploit it for more.  It would be a monster to implement and then who would you want to run it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 08:10
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I am not sure if inflation is a fear, because depending on the amount...it may not be any more than we spend already on welfare. I suppose there could be issues with things like rent, if a lump sum was giving out everyone could then flock to housing and cause issues. If the program is specifically targeted perhaps this could be avoided. Like, "Hey Bob, you need $X per month for rent, so you Bob will get that. Alice needs $Y so she will get Y"  but this would of course require oversight, planning and would defeat the purpose of it being a simplifying process. I also wonder if this would cause rent to increase. If $500/month is suddenly given to you, well hey as a landlord why dont I just raise it? You can cover it after all. 


I'm not sure we would see this. If the people receiving the negative tax are the same as currently receiving welfare then we're just changing the liquidity of their assets. No scarcity issue is being changed so the landlords catering to these people are already sort of targeting the margin and raising rents would probably just result in them driving out their customer base I suspect.


But its not just the people "currently receiving welfare", BI would be every adult, except perhaps the very wealthy who could be means tested out.  Or maybe I misunderstood your point here. 


Well yes I realize that and the universal makes little sense otherwise, but I basically answered your question in terms of a negative income tax instead. I think most UBI plans are coupled with more aggressive progressiveness on income tax so that from the basic standpoint of how much money do you get handed to you, it's essentially the same thing as the UBI. Also though, my comment would still hold approximately I believe. Inflation isn't an equal opportunity employer and not all sectors can equally respond to opportunities to raise prices.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 08:11
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:



This is a good point, but that's for those who would simply be seeing their welfare restructured but not amount changed. For people who are working and getting by with little or none, could it perhaps be an issue then? Like if I make $2500 a month and pay $500 in rent, then a BI comes in and I get $500 for free, Im now getting $3000 a month, why not raise rents? If within this amount I'd not be priced out. 
As it was said, this idea usually is based on going to most people. 

But yeah, it's not an outrageous idea, it doesn't seem terribly disruptive and if we are actually seeing the permanent replacement of labor with machines, the idea will make even more sense. For now, I'd only want to see this at a small level, like how some countries do a few hundred a month. 
As for crappy jobs being lost not being a bad thing, you are right about that! It's always been the argument. That's progress. We may have lost jobs due to children not being to work in mines but no one will say that was a bad thing. 



Yeah at that point I don't really want to even stipulate as to the outcome without doing some research. I would suspect what you say is true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 08:15
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The liberal lefty in me likes the idea of pulling people out of poverty but the conseravtive in me doesn't like the idea of encouraging laziness. Would it do that, and would the devil make work for idle hands etc?

Well I guess it would depend on how you define laziness and work. If you just mean it as either working for an employer or not, then there would be more laziness. But if you were to consider the usefulness of the particular job for the rest of society, then I think an absence of useless jobs wouldn't be a bad thing. A garbage collector will always be useful, but there are many bureaucratic jobs that don't necessarily contribute to anything. Here is an article on that subject.

Apparently PA's censor still catches naughty words in urls for some reason.


I think Chomsky is a little utopian when he speaks to this point, but pretty much on the mark. Even if it causes people to be lazy in a very real sense, like staying at home and watching TV 16 hours a day, the fact that a parent is home with their children for example would probably be an order of magnitude more productive than working a minimal wage soul crushing job that would be more efficient if automated anyway.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - May 01 2016 at 08:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 12:26
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I think Chomsky is a little utopian when he speaks to this point, but pretty much on the mark. Even if it causes people to be lazy in a very real sense, like staying at home and watching TV 16 hours a day, the fact that a parent is home with their children for example would probably be an order of magnitude more productive than working a minimal wage soul crushing job that would be more efficient if automated anyway.

As someone who spends many days a week watching kids (not mine mind you) I have thought about that before and agree. Sometimes I wonder about that aspect of the descriptions of possible societies given by people like Chomsky, Kropotkin, and the like, it can seem a bit utopian at times, but ultimately I think there is less utopianism in it than not. I think Chomsky has said a truly utopian view would be to think that keeping the current system and expecting some sort of fundamental change.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 12:48
I referring to his specific point that without work people will pursue meaningful cultural and intellectual avenues. I don't think that's reasonable to assume for quorum of our current society. My point was that even if they don't there's social functions will can still be served. Though again I can also imagine negatives that would result too which is why hypothetical like this are kinda useless once you progress past a certain point.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 15:21
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Iris, very sorry to hear about this.....and hope things improve.  I didn't realize it was like that over there as well, I would have assumed Netherlands were very different from that experience.

I hope so too. Thank you very much for your reply. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2016 at 23:57
Holy crap!!!  Reading this thread, I think that I just became a Tea Party Conservative!!! As ideal as getting paid to sit home and watch TV 16 hours a day this is about the most completely ridiculous idea I have ever heard.  "Hey Joe...I've got this really great idea...why don't you become a doctor/lawyer/CPA, work your ass off 60 hours a week, make lots of money so you can afford two homes, three cars, and two golf club memberships....and as your reward pay 70% in income taxes so that the government can pay people to stay home and watch TV 16 hours a day".  Can you say lead balloon?  "What do you mean that there is no one working at the golf club today?  No caddies?  No waitstaff in the restaurant?  No washroom attendant?  Where are these people to pamper my rich ass?"  "Why the hell am I paying them to stay home and watch TV?  They should be here washing my balls!!!!"   etc etc etc.  

People need to make smarter decisions. Should I study for this exam or practice my keg stands?  Should I get a degree in underwater basketweaving so that I can say I have a college degree?  Or should I get a degree in a useful profession?  Am I more mechanically inclined person who would be better off going to technical school to learn a trade?  Should I spend $50k a year at college to go away out of state to get away from my parents so I can party or should I live at home with my parents as long as they will let me, work a job to pay for my college, and save up as much money as I can while doing so, so when I do finish college, I have practical job experience, and maybe enough money to move out on my own?   Trust me....I hate working as much as the next guy, but it will always be a necessary evil. 

On the other hand, I fully support making able-bodied welfare recipients earn their welfare by contributing to society.  egads, even if it means financially supporting "evil" private corporations to pay/train/supervise/co-ordinate these society improving labors and laborers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 06:50
It's kinda telling that you assume that everyone even gets the opportunity to ask themselves those questions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 07:30
Sitting at home does infinitely less harm to society than most work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 09:19
Andy, Jim....as to the concerns of unworkable complexity.  Actually, a BI set-up would be infinitely easier and less complex than the current US system, which has mountains of rules, regulation, and bloated bureaucracies to figure them all out and enforce them.  And they all vary depending on where you live, and there are lots of completely different programs, many kinds, so many different intermingling sets of rules.

All of that goes away with BI.  Far simpler.  One check for all, one amount, almost no regulation, and very little administration, which creates significant savings.   

Rather, the main questions revolve around how to fund it as well as inflationary worries.  Those things do need to be studied by smart people without politically clouded mindsets. 
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