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someone_else 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 23998 |
 Posted: February 19 2018 at 09:00 |
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Akt, Profusion and Daal are three examples of Italian bands that are labeled "Eclectic" and there are also a handful of "Symphonic" bands from Italy. Italy has its own tradition of progressive rock since about 1970 or maybe earlier (the oldest RPI-tagged album on PA dates from 1965: a self-titled album by a band called Equipe 84). All RPI bands originate from Italy. Most of them have a rather symphonic, melodic sound, but not all: Area, formerly under JR/F (if my ageing memory serves me right), is more like RIO/Avant or Eclectic to my ears. Most of them sing in Italian, but not all: Il Trono dei Ricordi, for instance, has English lyrics. RPI is some sort of generic term: the only thing you can be sure of is that the band or artist hails from Italy. The former name of the subgenre (used until about 10 years ago) was "Italian Symphonic Prog".  Genres are not something to make too much fuss about  .Edited by someone_else - February 19 2018 at 09:01 |
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 5908 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 15:42 |
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In a blind test I can tell Canterbury from Jazz Fusion from Kraut. I'm sure I'm not alone with that ability.
RPI is a different animal. Exactly like Some_Else Said, "Akt, Profusion and Daal are three examples of Italian bands that are labeled "Eclectic" and there are also a handful of "Symphonic" bands from Italy. Italy has its own tradition of progressive rock since about 1970 or maybe earlier (the oldest RPI-tagged album on PA dates from 1965: a self-titled album by a band called Equipe 84). All RPI bands originate from Italy. Most of them have a rather symphonic, melodic sound, but not all: Area, formerly under JR/F (if my ageing memory serves me right), is more like RIO/Avant or Eclectic to my ears. Most of them sing in Italian, but not all: Il Trono dei Ricordi, for instance, has English lyrics. RPI is some sort of generic term: the only thing you can be sure of is that the band or artist hails from Italy. The former name of the subgenre (used until about 10 years ago) was "Italian Symphonic Prog". RPI can blur the line between a few other sub genres, even when sung in Italian. But it doesn't bother me. Edited by omphaloskepsis - February 19 2018 at 15:48 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24391 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 15:53 |
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I just wonder about one thing: is it so hard to read those genre definitions? People put a lot of work into each of them, and they are meant to provide an explanation as to why the subgenre exists. Of course, one can always disagree with the definition - or even with the subgenre's existence - but I think that it would be a mark of respect for the work of the people who have been maintaining this site for over 13 years to make at least the effort of reading what they wrote.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 5908 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:23 |
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I read every one of them. I've read some to curious friends. I feel Progarchive Subgenre Definitions are Webster's of Prog subgenres.
 End of story. |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:37 |
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I think Raff was aiming for the OP not at you....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:49 |
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*downs entire beer in one swig... but still wishes I had a joint*   as I've often said Pedro... one of the first things I do when I finally get control of this site from M@X is create a special honorary PA's title for you... PA's Poet Laureate. One of PA's great treasures you are... umm hmmm. One I'll even go through the hell fires of Captcha to honor... < -cfasync="false" ="/cdn-cgi/s/d07b1474/cloudflare-static/email-decode.min.js"> Edited by micky - February 19 2018 at 16:55 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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noni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1092 |
Posted: February 19 2018 at 17:22 |
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I apolizie for ignoring your original post!...  As originally posted, both Italian, Krautrock or Canterbury don't sum up this genre? Is this Folk , Symphonic or Jazz, what ever?... Sorry just being an idiot here, explainations not fully explained here...
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Raccoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2012 Location: 444 Grove St RZ Status: Offline Points: 763 |
Posted: February 20 2018 at 04:56 |
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Italian progressive music is strongly based in Classical, with it's music being very dramatic. Like a theater (or theatre, if you'd prefer). Of course, there's plenty of Jazz-Fusion albums (ETNA, etc.) and Singer/Songwriter (Mauro Pelosi), but much of the music is based around Symphonic structure. Krautrock is usually droning, a recurrent drum-structure. Could go into long jams, or Faust-like RIO-isms. Canterbury is the quirky side of Jazz/Rock/Pop. All of these subcategories are in-part to categorize 'World Music', since it's such a broad spectrum. And in some countries, there's been a BOOM in a musical style, like Germany (Krautrock), the lovely, delicate Italian Prog (Rock FROM Italy=RPI), Canterbury (music FROM CANTERBURY, very British and pastoral).. It's not too complicated, and it makes it easy to designate bands in their respected fields. Like RIO, you can easily understand why Henry Cow, Art Bears, Zappa, etc. is in that category. My advice is to not think too much about it, and just listen to everything (also things not included on this site, like the MPB scene in Brazil). Open your mind and your wallet, and treat your music addiction with multiple sources. |
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Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010 Location: West Country,UK Status: Offline Points: 3041 |
Posted: February 20 2018 at 13:11 |
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I discovered this site back in around 2006 when I was rebuilding and extending my record collection, much of which I lost/ misplaced/sold back in the 1980's. I thought I knew a bit about the music I loved but this site has been a totally indispensable resource for discovering bands and artist of all genres and eras from all around the world. I still marvel at how little I actually know but I my love and appreciation of all types of progressive music just keeps growing. RPI is one particular area that this site and the experts here have helped me explore beyond the 3 or 4 classics that I knew about in the 70's/80's. In fact ive realised just how unimportant 'Genre' tags are except as a tool to maybe narrow down a search for a particular sound or feel of music. And after all, my collection is filed alphabetically and not by genres. So many thanks and all deep respect to those who have put so much time, love and effort into making this the fantastic resource that it is
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Booba Kastorsky
Forum Newbie 
Joined: December 28 2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 36 |
Posted: March 04 2018 at 15:52 |
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Well, many consider Canterbury as a sub-genre or related to Jazz Fusion. And it's hard to argue with it. Jazz fusion in most cases means a fusion between jazz in rock in any form and proportions, and this is exactly what Canterbury style is, isn't it? It's distinctive elements, in my opinion, are a few pinches of Monty-Python style humor, psychedelia, avant-garde and a bit of classical music (mostly evident in National Health and Egg). I can't hear too much difference between, say, Tony Williams Lifetime and National Health. Maybe it's just me. They both even have some vocals! Besides, the term Canterbury unties quite different bands, from almost pure pop Caravan to almost avant-garde Matching Mole. As of RPI, do Arti & Misterie belong to RPI? I hold their CD in Jazz/Jazzy/Fusion section, for instance.
Edited by Booba Kastorsky - March 04 2018 at 15:56 |
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Magnum Vaeltaja
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 01 2015 Location: Out East Status: Offline Points: 6777 |
Posted: March 04 2018 at 16:33 |
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No they don't; they're listed under jazz rock/fusion on this site.
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when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16164 |
Posted: March 05 2018 at 07:06 |
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There are parts of the definitions that are strange to me, as well, and not exactly descriptive of its music at all ... as an example, GENESIS is just as Symphonic as any other band listed under that place, and ELP is also just as Symphonic, when one considers the amount of classical music they did, and their intense and obviously GREAT interpretations. No one talks about how they interpreted Mussorgsky, but it is excellent, even if not as complete as it should have been to show up the classical idiots that copied the score inch by inch without interpretation. PFM is very classically oriented and played various pieces. FOCUS played a myriad of classical pieces, not to mention Thijs solo albums. BANCO was, compositionally, extremely symphonic minded and beautifully so. Just a few examples. But we forget, the incredible history of music that ITALY has, when discussing these things and creating a term to describe something or other. However, I do not think that we're the problem. I do think that the musicians themselves should share some of the blame ... the variety of stuff just plastered us to the wall ... not just you ... and it made it impossible to have a clean cut definition and orientation. Folk, in general, is beyond description for me, and I wish we would just admit that ... trying to pigeonhole, for example, someone like the INCREDIBLE STRING BAND, when they could be psychedelic one moment, crazy the next, and totally folk the next, and then traditional the next played by a sitar ... what? ... wtf? ... is really hard, and the British Isles had an incredible well developed sense of folk music, when one goes to bands like FAIRPORT CONVENTION and how well they not only showed the music, but how adaptable a lot of that music was ... and they were not the only band. It sort of becomes ... let's find a word for these 4 bands ... voila ... we'll call it ... suchandsuchandnonsuch ... and while the intentions of those who did that are GOOD, sometimes VERY GOOD, the sad thing is, in my estimation, that they failed the music course ... their musical descriptions is not about music ... it's about rock'r'roll, and like some folks said here, that is just pop music! For all this to improve and take better hold, I do believe that some things need to be cleaned up ... but it has become impossible to clean up a database that has so many years in it ... no one will do it, for any money, and on top of it, too many folks will end up disagreeing with everything all over again, which is even worse. Thus, a term like "krautrock" and "Canterbury" makes really good sense, unfortunately it does not explain the music very well in its term alone ... it's not like "baroque" that you can automatically hear one or two instruments, or "romantic" that you can hear a large orchestra, or the like (200 years after baroque). I just think that to create names for genres, takes a lot more than just preferences and ideas. One must know a little about music history, so its placement makes sense ... for example the word "jazz" makes perfect sense in the history of music for the 20th century. It does not specify a whole lot about anything, and it is the simplest word of all ... and we were not able to do this to the rock music we love so much. |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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twalsh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2014 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 328 |
Posted: March 07 2018 at 19:37 |
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I don't know these subgenres nearly as well as others, but I am guessing that the frustration for the original poster is that the definitions are not remotely systematic or described under the same criteria. Some are based na description of the music (progressive metal), while others highlight the geographic locale that the movement originated (Canterbury Scene) Still others will only make sense to those who know something of progressive rock and its history (Neo-Prog). I completely agree with your point of respecting the efforts of the contributors to this site. Here's an amusing historical example of this ongoing tension between a systematic and more organic approach to classification I first learned of in university and never forgot. (Taken from Wikipedia) Wilkins, a 17th-century philosopher, had proposed a universal language based on a classification system that would encode a description of the thing a word describes into the word itself—for example, Zi identifies the genus beasts; Zit denotes the "difference" rapacious beasts of the dog kind; and finally Zitα specifies dog. In response to this proposal and in order to illustrate the arbitrariness and cultural specificity of any attempt to categorize the world, Borges describes this example of an alternate taxonomy, supposedly taken from an ancient Chinese encyclopædia entitled Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge. The list divides all animals into 14 categories:
Borges claims that the list was discovered in its Chinese source by the translator Franz Kuhn.[3][4][5] |
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More heavy prog, please!
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Genres?
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ForestFriend wrote:
