Prog rock & Prog Metal

All:

This subject has arisen before, and I, personally, have struggled with it for quite some time.

I think what has happened over time is that people began to equate almost anything that is not "verse-chorus-verse-chorus" with "prog."  Okay, maybe I'm overstating it - but probably not by much.

Other elements that people are (usually incorrectly) equating with "prog" are:

-Use of "non-standard" instruments - anything other than guitar, bass, drums and basic keyboards - whether or not the intent of the artist was "progressive."  In my opinion, the simple inclusion of a Mellotron, violin, non-standard percussion, etc. does not make something "prog."

-Use of any time signature other than 3/4 or 4/4, and especially "complicated" signatures like 7/4, 7/8 and 9/8 - and especially when there are abrupt changes in time signatures during a composition.  Again, in my opinion, the simple use of non-standard time signatures does not necessarily make something "prog."

-Increased length of compositions, especially past 6 minutes.  And again, this does not necessarily make something "prog."

-Use of "studio tricks" and recording techniques to "up-tech" the music.  Yet again, the use of such tricks and up-teching does not necessarily make something "prog."

Ultimately, even if a composition uses all of the above - non-standard instruments (particularly keyboards and percussion), non-standard time signatures and signatures changes, lengthy compositions, studio tricks and up-teching - it would not automatically be "prog."

As I have suggested in other threads, I believe there is a difference between "happening upon" prog and having a conscious, deliberate prog "approach."  The Beatles are not prog simply because they used "proto-prog" elements in songs like Strawberry Fields, I Am the Walrus, etc.  Led Zeppelin is not prog simply because they used "proto-prog" elements in songs like Kashmir, Achilles Last Stand, etc.  Queen is not prog simply because they used "proto-prog" elements in songs like Bohemian Rhapsody, Prophet's Song, etc.  And so on.

In my opinion, an artist can only truly be labelled "prog" if they are using "prog sensibilities" (the elements listed above, plus others) in a deliberate way - as a conscious approach - in an ongoing fashion.  I would add that, in order to truly be considered a "prog" band - one worthy of a place on this site - the overwhelming majority of a band's ouevre has to be composed, executed and recorded using "prog sensibilities" in a deliberate, conscious manner.

In this regard, and as much as I love them, I personally reject a band like Supertramp as prog, and would not have included them on the site.  True, most of "Crime of the Century" comes darn close, as do parts of "Even in the Quietest Moments," "Breakfast in America" and "Brother Where You Bound."  But this does not represent even most of their work, much less the "overwhelming majority" of it.

On the other hand, I believe a band can, for the most part, use a "verse-chorus-verse-chorus" pattern - and even stay primarily in 3/4 and 4/4 - and still be "prog," based on their approach to songwriting, execution and recording.  I would put XTC in this category.  Indeed, The Church fits largely into this category, yet is undeniably a "prog band," since the vast majority of their work uses "prog sensibilities" in a very conscious, deliberate manner.

As for "prog metal," I believe there is such a thing - and that it is indeed a "sub-category" of prog - but that it is not nearly as "broad" as many members believe.  I would almost classify Dream Theater as prog metal, though they don't "stay" there all the time.  Ark would be a good example of true prog metal; I highly recommend "Burn the Sun" to anyone who has not heard it.  It is "simpler" than a band like Dream Theater, but it is more "essentially" prog metal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Peace.

Eddy wrote: of prog rock and metel?. thats easy, prog metel is just a heaver form of prog. just like metel is a heaveir form of rock.

that's basically true imo....

but @eddy: please write "metal", 3 times can't be a typo, haha

Eemu Ranta wrote: I sense a special kind of sophistication behind prog rock and its metal daughter. It's perfectionism, not compromising from artistic views because of prevailing public opinions/standards, and that something special I can't put into words. Among "prog metal" it's especially present in Opeth's music, even during their heavier parts it is so apparent that the heaviness shouldn't be an obstacle for any true prog lover. My first post here, have been reading for some time now though, hope to stay.

Would you agree that the "perfectionism" might come from sophisticated means of digitally producing the music, so that the performances are always squeaky clean - or are you saying that there is perfectionism in another area?

The execution of the material, e.g. in precision of note-playing such that "bluff" is pretty much a thing of the past?

The structuring of the forms - if so, how are the forms in prog metal inherently progressive?

Or the music itself? Melody, harmony, rhythm, timbre?

As far as "not compromising from artistic views because of prevailing public opinions/standards" is concerned, wouldn't you agree that is what all prog is about?

"that something special I can't put into words."

This is always the fun bit, IMO  Trying to state the unstatable. Of course, you can't, and people often think you're geeky for trying, but to me it's like mandelbrot fractals - the more you look, the more you see.

What would you rather see? A nice forest, or a nice forest with some very interesting trees and even more interesting species of flora and fauna within? You can identify the flora and fauna without disturbing the beauty of the forest.

Time for another drink, methinks...

Welcome to ProgArchives - as you can tell, we think a bit differently around here... Out of the box, you might say

My "perfectionism" is highly bound to the "artistic views", which might
be to NOT have that crystal clean digital sound, because there is a much
older sophistication in analog recording styles (and then the recording
part is a whole different sophistication than the composing) . Neither can
it be limited to execution of the material, structure or complicated parts/
technical playing of any kind, since perfectionism might aswell be a
decision to do it the other way instead of this one. Therefore even
improvisation is often one kind of perfectionism.

I concur that the search for lacking answers is among the more
amusing parts of life, especially when there's intelligent people with
differing opinions