Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:17
tszirmay wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best.
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts.
This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy!
I find your constant generalizations about Americans lacking curiosity and a desire to learn somewhat offensive.
As I've mentioned, I love language and take great pleasure in studying it, and I have been told that I have talent for it (as evidenced by my grades in my college major of Russian) but to become fluent as an adult requires an immense commitment of time and energy. I certainly believe learning other languages is valuable, but the truth is we rarely have opportunities or necessity to use languages other than English unless we specifically seek them out.
The benefit is not worth the cost for most of us. That doesn't mean we're lazy. And I still maintain thta it's easier to learn a foreign language growing up in a major city in a European country where one can have near constant exposure to the languages of tourists.
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them!
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
...of course we would. I work at a school.
Are you a teacher?
I am in my fourth year a teacher.
We had a riot last year during breakfast. It's a race thing- blacks vs. Native Americans.
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:15
The most honorable of professions. The art of communicating information is the ultimate vocation. Now imagine if you could talk to each of your students in their mother tongues. Do you not think that would have a positive effect?
I'd say a miraculous one! Sir! (To Sir with Love!)
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:12
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE :
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them!
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
...of course we would. I work at a school.
Are you a teacher?
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them!
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:09
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE :
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them!
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:07
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best.
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts.
This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy!
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:04
thellama73 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
I don't really agree. I think it's our geographical isolation rather than a fault of the education system. In Europe it's simply practical to learn several languages because of all the nearby countries, and you're bound to be exposed a lot to other languages. This is why so many people in the American southwest speak Spanish-they're around it all the time.
Someone living in, say, Ohio, has no reason to learn another language and is unlikely to encounter much exposure. Language is a very hard thing to acquire without consistent exposure.
Not necessarily true, you are an apologist for linguistic secularism. Internet and globalization has eliminated that excuse . There are few uni-ethnic areas left in America. 40 years ago being a polyglot in Europe was very rare , only among the diplomatic corps and the elite. But today , even Italians and Hungarians learn English. Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
I don't really see that it contradicts what I said. Most of the internet is in English, so English speakers will not encounter foreign languages consistently unless they seek it out. It is also hard to become fluent through only reading and without speaking or listening. More Europeans are learning English today, presumably because of the influx of English media (movies, tv and the internet)
That is not new , mon ami! What about Spanish (namely Mexican TV) , why do only latinos watch it? Because , most Americans believe that only one language is necessary and paramount ! Stonebeard even agreed to that! As if learning another language has no benefits! Well it saved my balls!
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:58
tszirmay wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
I don't really agree. I think it's our geographical isolation rather than a fault of the education system. In Europe it's simply practical to learn several languages because of all the nearby countries, and you're bound to be exposed a lot to other languages. This is why so many people in the American southwest speak Spanish-they're around it all the time.
Someone living in, say, Ohio, has no reason to learn another language and is unlikely to encounter much exposure. Language is a very hard thing to acquire without consistent exposure.
Not necessarily true, you are an apologist for linguistic secularism. Internet and globalization has eliminated that excuse . There are few uni-ethnic areas left in America. 40 years ago being a polyglot in Europe was very rare , only among the diplomatic corps and the elite. But today , even Italians and Hungarians learn English. Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
I don't really see that it contradicts what I said. Most of the internet is in English, so English speakers will not encounter foreign languages consistently unless they seek it out. It is also hard to become fluent through only reading and without speaking or listening. More Europeans are learning English today, presumably because of the influx of English media (movies, tv and the internet)
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:55
How is this for EXPOSURE :
I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good HancockPark
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles …..
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:54
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
I don't really agree. I think it's our geographical isolation rather than a fault of the education system. In Europe it's simply practical to learn several languages because of all the nearby countries, and you're bound to be exposed a lot to other languages. This is why so many people in the American southwest speak Spanish-they're around it all the time.
Someone living in, say, Ohio, has no reason to learn another language and is unlikely to encounter much exposure. Language is a very hard thing to acquire without consistent exposure.
Not necessarily true, you are an apologist for linguistic secularism. Internet and globalization has eliminated that excuse . There are few uni-ethnic areas left in America. 40 years ago being a polyglot in Europe was very rare , only among the diplomatic corps and the elite. But today , even Italians and Hungarians learn English. Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:48
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
I don't really agree. I think it's our geographical isolation rather than a fault of the education system. In Europe it's simply practical to learn several languages because of all the nearby countries, and you're bound to be exposed a lot to other languages. This is why so many people in the American southwest speak Spanish-they're around it all the time.
Someone living in, say, Ohio, has no reason to learn another language and is unlikely to encounter much exposure. Language is a very hard thing to acquire without consistent exposure.
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:44
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
I am fortunate to speak 7 languages fluently (no talent there , learned them very young!), so accents come rather easily. I spoke Hungarian at home, went to French school , lived in an English neighborhood (Montreal) , had a Spanish tutor (cubano no es lindo!) on Saturdays and a German one on Sunday. I can also do various Brit accents, Scot is somehow easier than Irish (when I finally realized that if your jaw doesn't move from alcohol stupor, the tongue will do Irish naturally! ) , Afrikaner is quite hard to master, while English with a German accent is easy, French the same and Italian/Spanish also. Portuguese is not as pretty as Brazilian (they talk like they play futbol!) . As for my mother tongue, Hungarian is like an alien language from Mars with no resemblance to anything else.......
I cannot imagine being fluent in three languages, much less seven.
This is one of America's biggest problems- a pride in multilingualism.
Ultra-nationalism is the main reason why this happens! People actually believe that learning another language requires a complete rebuild of all that one has learned from the mother tongue . FALSE! It has been proven that a normal average child between the ages of 5 and 14 with a basic IQ can absorb up to 10 languages SIMULTANEOUSLY . The young brain is a massive sponge with compartments that store this knowledge forever. Problem is finding the right drawer later. This is no talent, just another set of learning tools, like skiing, skating, kicking a ball or throwing a pitch. One just has to look at all the prog sub-genres as inspiration!
I misspoke in my previous post. I meant to say, "a pride in monolingualism."
I have, off and on, been learning to speak Spanish. I can somewhat understand some of my Hispanic students.
One student talked of "chaka chaka," thinking I did not know anything about the phrase.
I replied, "Yo tengo tres niños!"
Buena respuesta! Spanish is probably the easiest language because there are no pronunciation exceptions, you say it the way you read it! Unlike absurd English with its knight (naite) and french with all the strange vowel combos (o, eau, au etc...)
English's only defense is this: English is not a "pure" language. It is a mutt of many different languages: Greek, Latin, German, etc. We borrow from some many languages that we have no identity, and then it's even more confusing since we add new words to it every year that creep in due to pop culture and technology.
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:39
Southern US: not my fav Redneck: The word "idiot" comes to mind Texas: I like it Bronx/New Jersey: meh Canadian: I'm very envious Cockney: Birt's equivalent of our New Jersey, except worse Manchester: I'm very envious Posh: ew Australian: meh Latin American: meh Mid-west: seems normal to me
Edited by smartpatrol - September 24 2012 at 21:41
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
Posted: September 24 2012 at 21:36
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
I am fortunate to speak 7 languages fluently (no talent there , learned them very young!), so accents come rather easily. I spoke Hungarian at home, went to French school , lived in an English neighborhood (Montreal) , had a Spanish tutor (cubano no es lindo!) on Saturdays and a German one on Sunday. I can also do various Brit accents, Scot is somehow easier than Irish (when I finally realized that if your jaw doesn't move from alcohol stupor, the tongue will do Irish naturally! ) , Afrikaner is quite hard to master, while English with a German accent is easy, French the same and Italian/Spanish also. Portuguese is not as pretty as Brazilian (they talk like they play futbol!) . As for my mother tongue, Hungarian is like an alien language from Mars with no resemblance to anything else.......
I cannot imagine being fluent in three languages, much less seven.
This is one of America's biggest problems- a pride in multilingualism.
Ultra-nationalism is the main reason why this happens! People actually believe that learning another language requires a complete rebuild of all that one has learned from the mother tongue . FALSE! It has been proven that a normal average child between the ages of 5 and 14 with a basic IQ can absorb up to 10 languages SIMULTANEOUSLY . The young brain is a massive sponge with compartments that store this knowledge forever. Problem is finding the right drawer later. This is no talent, just another set of learning tools, like skiing, skating, kicking a ball or throwing a pitch. One just has to look at all the prog sub-genres as inspiration!
I misspoke in my previous post. I meant to say, "a pride in monolingualism."
I have, off and on, been learning to speak Spanish. I can somewhat understand some of my Hispanic students.
One student talked of "chaka chaka," thinking I did not know anything about the phrase.
I replied, "Yo tengo tres niños!"
Buena respuesta! Spanish is probably the easiest language because there are no pronunciation exceptions, you say it the way you read it! Unlike absurd English with its knight (naite) and french with all the strange vowel combos (o, eau, au etc...)
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:17
Spanish is probably the easiest language because there are no pronunciation exceptions, you say it the way you read it! Unlike absurd English with its knight (naite) and french with all the strange vowel combos (o, eau, au etc...) 
Accents
Topic Options
tszirmay wrote:
) , Afrikaner is quite hard to master, while English with a German accent is easy, French the same and Italian/Spanish also. Portuguese is not as pretty as Brazilian (they talk like they play futbol!) . As for my mother tongue, Hungarian is like an alien language from Mars with no resemblance to anything else....... 
People actually believe that learning another language requires a complete rebuild of all that one has learned from the mother tongue . FALSE! It has been proven that a normal average child between the ages of 5 and 14 with a basic IQ can absorb up to 10 languages SIMULTANEOUSLY . The young brain is a massive sponge with compartments that store this knowledge forever. Problem is finding the right drawer later. This is no talent, just another set of learning tools, like skiing, skating, kicking a ball or throwing a pitch. One just has to look at all the prog sub-genres as inspiration! 