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flaxton 
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Joined: November 08 2005
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 Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:49 |
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i love the music of cream but some of their jamming did get rather boring.
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flaxton
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:39 |
 NoEarthleyCon. wrote:
I never really said that they needed to jam to be good musicians, I just would enjoy an hour long version of starship trooper where each of the members of Yes would play a 15 minute solo. haha Hey, everyone can dream. |
But that wouldn't be Yes, they donˇ't jam, their music is too well structured to admit jamming, most of ther bands of those days were pretty similar on stage than on studio, just listen genesis Live (1973) or Renaissance Live at the Carnegie hall, you'll find that the similarities between their albums and their concerts is amazing, because they were able to repeat it, many bands jam because they can't recreate perfectly what they did on studio with the help of technology,
Starship Trooper with 15 minutes solos would be more like a light version of Dream Theater, and I'm sure that's not what the fans want.
Iván
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NoEarthleyCon.
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:33 |
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I never really said that they needed to jam to be good musicians, I just would enjoy an hour long version of starship trooper where each of the members of Yes would play a 15 minute solo. haha Hey, everyone can dream.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:27 |
NoEarthleyCon. wrote:
why didnt a band like Yes play shows were they would play solos and "jam" like the grateful dead?
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Why should they?
That´s not their style neither the music they play.
Grateful Dead is a USA band born in San Francisco in 1965 when Psychedelia and for that reason jaming was on their peak, that's the music they wanted to create and they were good at it.
Yes is a Symphonic band that reached their peak in the early 70's when complex and well structured music with Classical influences was in the peak, they don't need to jam to do their music and their skills are beyond any doubt.
I believe jamming is overrated in most cases.
But at the end, each one has his style.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2008 at 11:35
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NoEarthleyCon.
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:13 |
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Sleeper, I admited that there is progressive rock stil present, but not relavent like other bands from other genres that are similair to prog rock. And no offense to your personal taste, yet i dont consider metal progressive rock, it just doesnt fit my ear.
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Points: 5898
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:56 |
Scratchy wrote:
Jamming is usually based around blues. |
But it can also be based around jazz, which means that you can jam in a way that moves away from blues.  (yeah, I know that jazz is derivative of blues but that doesn't change the fact that by the sixties those two genres were very clearly distinguishable from each other)
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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sleeper
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:50 |
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NoEarthlyCon, I suggest you hang around the archives for a while, you'll see that the musical base of prog these days is incredibly diverse. There may still be bands like Transatlantic, Spocks Beard and The Flower Kings, but you have the likes of Taal, White Willow, Dream Theater, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Kayo Dot just to name a few that are quite different.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 110
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 14:53 |
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Jamming is usually based around blues.Yes were about getting away from the blues sound.There were literally hundreds of blues based bands around in the late 60's.They were probably sick of that sound at that time so tried to do something different along with a few other groups i.e. birth of progressive rock.
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 14:18 |
fuxi wrote:
Prog bands are routinely accused of "noodling" in the mainstream media. |
Yeah, and if they go out of their way to keep the jamming focused they get accused of "droning on". (Hawkwind's probably the best example here)
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 13:55 |
fuxi wrote:
popeyethecat wrote:
The idea of improvisation absolutely terrifies me. Then again, so does performing in general. Jamming isn't for all musicians, even the very good ones! It's a completely different approach that also needs to be learned and practised. Some will prefer to study composition, and to be honest, bad improvisation is bad
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That's true too! I've never seen the point, for example, of King Crimson's THRAKATTAK. It's a P-E-R-V-E-R-S-E album! |
I think Bruford saves the day on a lot of the mayhem that occurs on that one.
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 13:53 |
Atavachron wrote:
you heard any of King Crimsons spontaneous stuff? ..THRaKaTTaK comes to mind
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And, of course, the Great Deciever box set ( live 73-74 ). 
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2488
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 12:48 |
popeyethecat wrote:
The idea of improvisation absolutely terrifies me. Then again, so does performing in general. Jamming isn't for all musicians, even the very good ones! It's a completely different approach that also needs to be learned and practised. Some will prefer to study composition, and to be honest, bad improvisation is bad
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That's true too! I've never seen the point, for example, of King Crimson's THRAKATTAK. It's a P-E-R-V-E-R-S-E album!
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fuxi
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Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2488
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 12:46 |
Darklord55 wrote:
The only thing I don't like about jamming is it tends to turn into a noodling session after so long. And, it can become rather tedious which at time can lose an audience. The jam band needs to realize when to stop in order to keep things interesting. Jazz musicians also have a tendency to noodle a tad bit too long. Cheers!! |
One man's "noodling" is another man's paradise. Prog bands are routinely accused of "noodling" in the mainstream media. There's plenty of "noodling" on Steve Hillage and National Health albums - and I just can't get enough of it!
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popeyethecat
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Joined: March 04 2008
Location: England
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Points: 190
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 11:11 |
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The idea of improvisation absolutely terrifies me. Then again, so does performing in general. Jamming isn't for all musicians, even the very good ones! It's a completely different approach that also needs to be learned and practised. Some will prefer to study composition, and to be honest, bad improvisation is bad
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Darklord55
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2007
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Points: 357
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 08:49 |
You don't have to apologize for mentioning the Dead, imho. They are not my favorite band but I still like them and have a good collection of Dick's Picks. When I'm in the mood to kick back and listen to some jammin they are my first choice. I always will wonder what they would have been like without all the drugs. And how good Jerry would have been if he hadn't been high on herione all the time. Guess we'll nvever know. They could play some good space rock at times.
The only thing I don't like about jamming is it tends to turn into a noodling session after so long. And, it can become rather tedious which at time can lose an audience. The jam band needs to realize when to stop in order to keep things interesting. Jazz musicians also have a tendency to noodle a tad bit too long. Cheers!!
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2488
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 08:31 |
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I love the middle section of "America", but I never felt Yes were good at jamming or even improvising. Those "duels" between Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman (or whoever else was on keyboards) in recent years always felt scripted! One tune where Steve used to let himself go in the early days was "Yours is no disgrace". If you listen to his solo on the Yessongs album, it's considerably different from the Yessongs movie (filmed, I believe during the same tour). Fascinating stuff! A shame he soon gave up improvising after that!
But there's hope, you know. One of prog's greatest guitar players, in my view, is Allan Holdsworth. He plays riffs, lead melodies AND improvised solos brilliantly on albums like GAZEUSE (Gong) and FEELS GOOD TO ME (Bill Bruford). I've recently discovered some of his best solo albums: they're mostly improvised but really lovely, i.e. not over-technical. And Holdsworth's still at it!
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chopper
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 07:17 |
Well, I like the middle section of America, Yes should have done more imo. There is some "jamming" evident in live versions of Starship Trooper for instance, although this is over a fixed chord sequence. There are probably other examples but I often feel they could do more. Rush is another example of a band that tends to replicate studio versions note for note, in Peart's case he often replicates his drumming as well. On the odd occasion they have jammed, they do it well.
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npjnpj
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Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 06:47 |
Yes playing the centre section of 'America' comes pretty close to my idea of jamming.
Not very impressed by it though, shows that it's probably better that they didn't pursue the idea.
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 04:57 |
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I don't find jamming good or bad in itself. Same thing with its absence. On one hand, I'm quite fond of bands that make a true art form or even a religion out of jamming (Can, Deep Purple, Hawkwind, King Crimson and so on...) but on the other hand there's a band like Captain Beyond. What I like so much about them is that they've got all the signature changes and playing around with rhythms that are typical of progressive rock - but on their selftitled at least, their songwriting is just so tight and concise and they make this idea of short but complex songs work. It's as seamless a cross between prog and standard 1960s/1970s hard rock as you'll ever find.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Sunny In Jeddah
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Joined: November 18 2008
Location: IslamAin'tSoBad
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Points: 90
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Posted: November 26 2008 at 19:40 |
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Just because you can play interesting stuff in complex time sigs doesn't mean you're comfortable or good at "jamming" in front of a live crowd.
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