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Lewian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2020 at 10:05
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

It's kinda same with sports comparisons... like, would you rather have KAJ on your team (15+ great seasons) or Shaq (half that number, motivational problems peppered his career, but 1999-00 season surpassed anything Kareem achieved imo).

When it comes to bands, coming up with legendary, legit 5-star skull-crushing material is the most important. I'd rather have Änglagård with 3 near perfect releases than a band with, say, 20+ studio albums, of which a quarter is of "very good but not earth shattering" quality (say, I dunno, Uriah Heep).

The best of both worlds: lengthy, quality career with a number of top tier albums to boot. Jethro Tull is such a band for sure (min. 4 max rating albums, 13+ of good/very good quality imo).

I think a sports comparison is apt here. For my money, when I think about Shaq's legacy, it is DEFINITELY tarnished by his lack of motivation at certain points. My favorite example here is Jim Brown (from gridiron football). The guy only played 9 seasons, but they were perfect and he walked away while on top. That's a levekl of self awareness I am looking for in an artist, athlete, or entertainer of any kind. 

The difference is that Genesis making an album that I don't like will not cost me any money, not occupy any space in my collection, and not even cost me more than half an hour of time after which I'll probably stop listening. Sports is inherently competitive and somebody who isn't up for the job anymore takes the space of somebody else in a team, which can be bad. But the once legendary band producing a supposedly bad album doesn't do any harm. Surely it doesn't make me unlisten their earlier stuff that I liked. So in Genesis vs Anglagard Genesis wins 7:3 (say - I haven't re-evaluated all these albums for writing this posting), and the stuff that they did later which I can do very well without doesn't bother me in the least for this comparison.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2020 at 17:32
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...
I hope you realize Moshkito how easy it is to flip around what you just said. How about "don't get your own band if you  are not man enough to handle the negative stuff!" 
...
Hi,

The point is, that many of these folks are scared of doing their own thing, and since they can't, they would rather trash someone else because this makes their "opinion" more important than the music.

I disagree.

The music, is far more important than any external opinion.

That is NEVER to say that someone's comments do not have any weigh or strength ... but it is to say, that the person over there with the courage to do the work, is the one that is showing the music!

As a writer, for example, I do not write for anyone's comments, although there are a few people here whose comments I happen to appreciate and take them to heart! What I write is from the inside, via the inside WITH the words of the inside ... and as such someone saying it is not right, or they don't like it ... doesn't matter to me! It's my child! And just because it's color is not the same you or others see, some folks will think it is wrong, or bad.

That is gross, and inappropriate under any condition. The life of the arts, for hundreds of years would not have survived if it were not for some internal constitution that helped bring it about ... and no one can tell me that music is any different!

Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...
Also, to all of you commenters who claiming that due the inherit subjectivity in evaluating music there is no value in setting criteria for evaluating a band's legacy, that's fine. But just bear in mind, you guys are participants on a web site that votes and then ranks albums and then discusses the reasons behind those ratings in reviewed and a forum. So while you may say you believe it is subjective, your actions via participation on the archives say otherwise. 

Exactly my point. These folks proclaim to be progressive in their views about the music, but they are always ready to put someone down, and not help the band along, because it sounds like this or that ... now the thread about that one band that has been about for 20 plus years is that it sounds like PF ... so do many other bands that use the same instruments ... c'mon ... go to Guitar Center and see what you can buy!

I will joke about the Sunday Morning Rock Constitutionals with Neal Morse, but that is not a put down ... in many ways, it is a chance for many of us ... to go and do something nice that is worth believing in ... at least in theory! 

But sitting here and putting down composers for their supposed "quality", or "quantity" is utterly ridiculous ... heck ... there is not a composer, writer, or painter, that does not have bagatelles in their closet! (Definition on the net ... a short, light piece of music, especially one for the piano. Or guitar!)


Edited by moshkito - August 20 2020 at 17:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 00:20
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

 I was looking at the 10 Ten Progressive Band thread going around now. 
 When I was trying to make my selection and figure out what order to put them 
 in I realized I had to balance out bands that had a lot of very good, but not necessarily great material vs 
 bands may have fewer songs I like , but the ones I like are outstanding.

 So where do you fall on the Quality vs Quantity discussion?


I will die on the hill of quality. I wish bands would have more self awareness about their legacies and know when to say enough is enough, my band has no more to say. I know I read somewhere that Robert Fripp has said somethign similar when asked about making mor King Crimson albums. 

For my taste, a tight high density discography like say Led Zeppelin's or Tool's carries so much more weight than say Yes. I mean just imagine Yes called it a quits after their late 70's breakup and their last album was Drama. Think about how much more mythical Yes' legacy would be had they done that. At this point, not only do we see them as mortals, but deeply flawed ones. In number terms, at this point, most of their musical output is actually sub-par which is crazy to think about. 


If Yes had called it quits after Drama, then I would have missed many great songs that I love, like Be The One, Mind Drive (at least half of the song), Endless Dream, The More we Live, Birthright, Shock to the System, Spririt of Survival, Dreamtime, In the Presence of, and even Owner of a Lonely Heart (as well as some of my favourite versions of their classic songs that were played in the 90's). Actually, they would have had to quit before Tormato. And for me, many of the albums done after the 70's actually have as many songs that I love as their 70's albums (the only albums that I love as a whole from them are Fragile and CttE). Still, Yes are my second favourite band, because those 2 albums are so great that they deserve it, and all the bunch of songs they have doned besides those 2 albums make a really wonderful collection of music that I have to go back to often enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 00:29
^ I totally agree. If Drama had been the last Yes album, then I would have missed out on so many great Yes albums that followed it, including 90125, ABWH, Talk, The Ladder, Magnification, Fly from Here, and Heaven & Earth. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 04:13
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ I totally agree. If Drama had been the last Yes album, then I would have missed out on so many great Yes albums that followed it, including 90125, ABWH, Talk, The Ladder, Magnification, Fly from Here, and Heaven & Earth. Thumbs Up
 
Exactly, not to mention that 90125 is their biggest selling album I believe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 15:44
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

...
Exactly, not to mention that 90125 is their biggest selling album I believe

Hi,

I just have to ask ... why does the biggest selling album is important in a discussion of "quality vs quantity"?

Again, is all we can talk about just commercial success because we don't believe in things that we think are not right or good? I happen not to thing that album is very good, and is one of the few of their albums I DO NOT HAVE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

...
Exactly, not to mention that 90125 is their biggest selling album I believe

Hi,

I just have to ask ... why does the biggest selling album is important in a discussion of "quality vs quantity"?

Again, is all we can talk about just commercial success because we don't believe in things that we think are not right or good? I happen not to thing that album is very good, and is one of the few of their albums I DO NOT HAVE!

I'm just saying that stopping Yes after Drama would have wiped out their biggest selling album. It's not my favourite Yes album either but quality is subjective and the fact that it's their biggest seller means it would possibly be voted top in a worldwide poll and a lot of people would say it's their highest quality album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:42
Anything that is not "quality" is not "music", in my book. 

It's "product". 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2020 at 13:38
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Anything that is not "quality" is not "music", in my book. 

It's "product". 

I would tend to agree, but just to play devil's advocate: is one person's product another person's music?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2020 at 06:31
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


The difference is that Genesis making an album that I don't like will not cost me any money, not occupy any space in my collection, and not even cost me more than half an hour of time after which I'll probably stop listening. Sports is inherently competitive and somebody who isn't up for the job anymore takes the space of somebody else in a team, which can be bad. But the once legendary band producing a supposedly bad album doesn't do any harm. Surely it doesn't make me unlisten their earlier stuff that I liked. So in Genesis vs Anglagard Genesis wins 7:3 (say - I haven't re-evaluated all these albums for writing this posting), and the stuff that they did later which I can do very well without doesn't bother me in the least for this comparison.

This is actually an excellent point and I had to think about it for a bit. While you almost had me, I am still maintining my conetntion. True, in sports, a player passed his prime being cynically brought onto the field by some last place team looking to cash in is hurting the game  by replacing a spot for a more competitive player. And this is not the case for a musician taking up space on a stage, exactly like you said. But that is not quite my point. 

Simply stated, if you agree that a player or artist's legacy should consider the sum total of their work, then repeated and consistently poor performances for the sake of money, especially after the artist's or player's peak has passed, will hurt that legacy. 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2020 at 06:37
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ I totally agree. If Drama had been the last Yes album, then I would have missed out on so many great Yes albums that followed it, including 90125, ABWH, Talk, The Ladder, Magnification, Fly from Here, and Heaven & Earth. Thumbs Up
 
Exactly, not to mention that 90125 is their biggest selling album I believe

So you guys are basically agreeing with me. You're saying that Yes' later career output WAS quality and therefore their legacy is not watered down at all. 

As I've clarified a few times already in different words, I don't care what you think about Yes. I am simply stating that however you evaluate a band's legacy (as subjective of an exercise as that may be), consistency across and concentration of quality matter. And given that you guys do indeed like Yes' output across all eras, you're agreeing with me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2020 at 07:35
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ I totally agree. If Drama had been the last Yes album, then I would have missed out on so many great Yes albums that followed it, including 90125, ABWH, Talk, The Ladder, Magnification, Fly from Here, and Heaven & Earth. Thumbs Up
 
Exactly, not to mention that 90125 is their biggest selling album I believe

So you guys are basically agreeing with me. You're saying that Yes' later career output WAS quality and therefore their legacy is not watered down at all. 


That's basically what I'm saying but you did kind of suggest that you thought they should have knocked it on the head after "Drama" when you said "Think about how much more mythical Yes' legacy would be had they done that" then later suggested they should have given up after "Magnification ("the damage they did in the 90's"). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2020 at 07:46
Quality of course. The more albums a band produces the more it tends to repeat themselves. And rare exceptions like Bowie-type chameleons only confirm the rule. I mean if you're not a die-hard fan of a certain sound and don't limit yourself with one genre, do you really need ALL Motorhead, AC/DC or Rick Wakeman albums?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2020 at 15:39
Quality all the way. Give me a 2 minute gem over a 20 minute borefest
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2020 at 16:49
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Quality all the way. Give me a 2 minute gem over a 20 minute borefest

Hi,

"Borefest's" ... are not that bad ... in the old days when you were stoned immaculate at the Fillmore, all the "borefests" were far out ... and no one has ever complained about The Grateful Dead ... maybe because they were far richer than anyone else ... and they couldn't careless about the comments anyway. They still played and did their thing ... and while I'm not a great fan, they have, in every concert, some really fine moments!

I think that "commercial music" has taken away the ability of a lot of "fans" to enjoy music ... and I kinda see folks that say that about "borefests" as someone that will not appreciate classical music later in their life ... and find some far out and wonderful things done with it ... and rock music tried ... were it not that we now consider "progressive" anyone that develops something from a riff only ... and then the whole piece still has exactly the same parts as any song listed in the top ten!

To me, THAT is a borefest ... continually doing the same thing ... over and over ... and it's about time that drummers go back to school to learn how to "accent" the music, not just playing a beat straight through it and make it sound .... the same ... and expect the lyrics to bring it alive. This kind of thing is by far the poorest of all "progressive" bands, many of which are listed here.

They deserve their mention and nickel, but perhaps not within a "progressive" mold since what they do is not progressive at all!

Quality is about developing something different and doing it well ... or you can give that guitarist a 9th string so he can solo even longer! AND he still won't be able to be as good as Egberto Gismonti was!


Edited by moshkito - August 24 2020 at 16:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2020 at 17:16
Coming back to the subject of Yes - and why not - my two all-time favourite Yes albums were released in the 1990's:- Talk (1994) and The Ladder (1999). I could go on, so I will. The three most recent albums by Yes: Magnification (2001); Fly from Here (2011); and Heaven & Earth (2014), are all far more preferable to my ears than the two classic Yes albums: Topographic Oceans (1973) and Relayer (1974), and I mean that most sincerely folks, as Hughie Green of Opportunity Knocks used to say. Smile
 


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 24 2020 at 17:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2020 at 17:25
Quality over quantity, of course.

Yet I wouldn't complain if an artist/band is/are very productive, albeit still inspired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2020 at 17:31
Tall order to have both.   Tull largely pulled it off; Genesis; the Beatles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2020 at 15:23
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Quality all the way. Give me a 2 minute gem over a 20 minute borefest


Hi,

"Borefest's" ... are not that bad ... in the old days when you were stoned immaculate at the Fillmore, all the "borefests" were far out ... and no one has ever complained about The Grateful Dead ... maybe because they were far richer than anyone else ... and they couldn't careless about the comments anyway. They still played and did their thing ... and while I'm not a great fan, they have, in every concert, some really fine moments!

I think that "commercial music" has taken away the ability of a lot of "fans" to enjoy music ... and I kinda see folks that say that about "borefests" as someone that will not appreciate classical music later in their life ... and find some far out and wonderful things done with it ... and rock music tried ... were it not that we now consider "progressive" anyone that develops something from a riff only ... and then the whole piece still has exactly the same parts as any song listed in the top ten!

To me, THAT is a borefest ... continually doing the same thing ... over and over ... and it's about time that drummers go back to school to learn how to "accent" the music, not just playing a beat straight through it and make it sound .... the same ... and expect the lyrics to bring it alive. This kind of thing is by far the poorest of all "progressive" bands, many of which are listed here.

They deserve their mention and nickel, but perhaps not within a "progressive" mold since what they do is not progressive at all!

Quality is about developing something different and doing it well ... or you can give that guitarist a 9th string so he can solo even longer! AND he still won't be able to be as good as Egberto Gismonti was!




As long as I enjoy the composition then I’m fine with a 15 minute song. If it’s just a very simple melody then I’ll be bored. There has to be some complexity and cleverness to keep me interested
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Crimson Mellotron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2020 at 14:44
Has to be quality but it is a very tricky question. Would you rather prefer your favorite band to have 5 stellar studio albums out of 20, or a band that released 5 albums and they were all pretty good?
However, if a band can manage to handle both then I'm in.
Still, if I like only one album by a band that has released more than 15, then what?
Does that matter to anyone? I guess it would be a 'me' issue, so...
It's a pretty damn endless topic
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