Anyone a fan of rap

Teaflax wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Just check his profile Tea...it ain't hard! Ah, right. Well, most profiles tend to be not very filled in, so it didn't occur to me. The bleeder's older'n me. *shock, horror*

But not as old as me.

Teaflax wrote: You don't even read what I write, Iván.  That is very sad (not to mention rude), as I write a lot and put effort into it, so I'm going to stop now.   Again kettle...pot...You dare to call me rude???   Have you noticed that you made fun of:   A member who mentioned Evanescense and you almost made fun of him. Another member mentioned Wiggenstein and you replied saying: Who is that? Frankenstein's transvestite brother? You made fun of members who liked Kansas and insulted one of the most respected bands. You defend Rap with nails and teeth but you attack people who like Meatloaf Another member replies you and you make fun of a minor grammar mistake Meatlof... That really was the final nail in your credibility coffin. Why? Please enlighten me with your almighty wisdom. Listening one of the best voices in Rock and a very talented piano player and composer as Jim Steinman is wrong?   Or do you coinsider it redneck music as in the case of Kansas?    You have proven me wrong on absolutely nothing (except for some minor nitpicking, which is just childish), and have been proven wrong on the overarching and salient facts time and time again.   Gosh, you're stubborn   you started with the quotes and songlists from a sitcom that you rubbed repeteadly on my face  until you were proved wrong. As for the truly central question that you keep avoiding; If you are out of your teens, I am genuinely sorry to hear that. If not, then I hope that time will bring you wisdom.   Yes, I'm sorry also, I wish I was in my teens to be younger,  but not for other reason.   Have you ever asked yourself why all people replies your posts with hostility? Can't it be that the problem is being cause by yourself or maybe you think this is a complot?   I read peaceful members who always are far from hostility answering you in a rude way, because you're an expert provoking people. You start a topic and when your facts are proved wrong you just jump to another thing.   Peace, Your friend in Prog, John.   Oh, nice touch to manipulate, I love it, it almost made me   But this is my last reply in this thread, I promissed to avoid it and I will do it. Iván

You don't even read what I write, Iván.  That is very sad (not to mention rude), as I write a lot and put effort into it, so I'm going to stop now.

Meatlof... That really was the final nail in your credibility coffin. You have proven me wrong on absolutely nothing (except for some minor nitpicking, which is just childish), and have been proven wrong on the overarching and salient facts time and time again.

As for the truly central question that you keep avoiding; If you are out of your teens, I am genuinely sorry to hear that. If not, then I hope that time will bring you wisdom.

Peace,

Your friend in Prog, John.

Well, I did list some of that above, but do definitely start with Endtroducing... by DJ Shadow. Lots of obscure Prog Rock samples hidden deep in there.

Anything off of Coldcut's own label Ninja Tune is a pretty safe bet (especially Jaga Jazzist a Norwegian Jazz/Electronica/Prog mix that's really mind-blowing). Also, most everything on Mo' Wax is pretty adventurous and lower-p progressive.

If you're looking for more Electronica-based stuff that has a progressive vibe, I'd recommend Squarepusher and Amon Tobin as starting points.

If you look into Madlib/Quasimoto/Yesterday's New Quintet, be forwarned that his stuff is all over the place, from fairly regular Hip Hop via Reggae to out-and-out Jazz.

Respected Rap artists in the underground scene are Aesop Rock, MF Doom/Dr Octagon Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Jurassic 5, Prefuse 73, Quannum and Latyrx, but I'm really no expert on that and have only a few such releases.

For historical grounding, some old school acts that moved away from just talking ryhtmically over a drum machine; A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Gang Starr, Eric B and Rakim, Black Sheep and The Pharcyde.

Wow. You perform the mother of all irrelevant subject changes in order to accuse me of changing the subject (which I haven't done even once on this thread; it's always been about your inability to deal with various aspects of reality). That's either a meta statement - in which case, bravo - or breathtakingly hypocritical.

You'll note - if you go back and read really carefully this time - that I was smart enough to set up a caveat in the Scrubs section; that it would be in an absolute minority even if you did find some. This was also the case, not least since the music refences you mentioned are not even full featured songs - of which almost every episode of Scrubs contains one, and which would be the only musical content really worth discussing, because it is an editorial choice (as in: "we approve of this music") rather than just an aspect of storytelling. They are instead short snippets used for effect in flashbacks or fantasy sequences. So, your argument about the all-pervasive nature of Rap is not in any way vindicated, nor am I proven wrong.

Sorry.

Also, you never proved anything about Kansas (in fact, I don't remember you proving even one of your wild statements in anyone's mind but your own). Well, okay, you did prove that they had some songs with less vocals, thus being less terrible by default. It really isn't all that narrow-minded to reject something for having major aspects that are too simplistic, mainstream and commercial, I think you'd have to agree.

But, you know, I really shouldn't argue AOR/Soft Rock or the artistic bankruptcy of most Rock with someone who seriously likes Meat Loaf. That's just too mean, even for me. But, hey, if that's your thing, no wonder you like Kansas.

So, tell me again how someone sells millions without charting, and how all sitcoms are full of Rap. Enlighten me as to why it is not "musically correct" to make music that you don't like? Explain also why you can make such cocksure judgements on music when you seem to know awfully little about how it is actually composed and performed? You did claim not to be psychic, after all.

Either way, you crack me up, Iván. Don't take it so bloody seriously, but do try to think things through before you blurt them out, and - please - try to accept when you are proven wrong (and before you get all huffy, you cannot prove me wrong on the almighty suckitude of Kansas, nor can I prove you wrong about the suckiness of Rap - these are matters of taste - let's try to stick to facts, shall we?).


Edited by Teaflax - June 06 2006 at 12:42

^You might as well complain about guitars because some people use them to play tunes that are ripped off. That's all I'm saying.

And thou avoidest the central point. Let's see if you can actually find it, Sir "What? It's not that I can't argue the case, I'm just boooored with it". Hint, it is a question involving time spent on planet Earth.

SCRUBS doesn't use Rap tracks??

 

 

Episode 4.01 - "My Old Friend's New Friend"
Scene: J.D. imagines his clock singing (the actual song later repeated as Turk dances around the car).
"Rapper's Delight" by Sugar Hill Gang. Album: various

Episode 4.05 - "Scene: Elliot and Molly school Turk on rap.
"Still DRE" performed by Sarah Chalke and Heather Graham.
Originally by Dr. Dre feat. Snoop Dogg. Album: '2001'

Episode 4.08 - "My Last Chance" Scene: J.D. considers how beer can cause death (background music).
"Bust A Move" by Young MC. Album: 'Stone Cold Rhymin''

 

And only checlked partially the fourth season.

The funny thing is that I don't know as many rap titles as you probably know and could find four in 3 minutes.

 

Facts, Teaflax Ain't they a bitch?

 

BTW: This thread has already bored me, you can stay with all the rap you want, honestly there's a lot more of better music to worry about and a lot of work to be done.

 

Iván

 

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2006 at 02:48

Big on bluster, thin on facts - and I'm beginning to sense a modus operandi here. You don't take in information and you don't offer information. I have to ask; how old are you, Ivan?

Find me an act - Rap or not - that has sold gold in the US in the last few years without hitting at least the Top 40. Some quick googling shows that a likely figure to creep into the US Top 40 is about 20-25 000 copies sold/week. So, in order to be certain to stay out of the top forty even on a slow week, you need to sell below 15 000 at all times. To make a gold record at that rate takes 66 weeks. More than one year and three months. It takes twice that to make platinum.

This is not taking into account that few records sell steadily and our set peak would be the high mark of what is usually a curve with quite a sharp dropoff after the first few weeks. So, I'm guessing that a gold selelr that never hit the charts would be quite an anomaly.

Or is there a mythical subset of Rap - or any other music - that sells in steady, fairly small streams for more than a year without ever getting much exposure? A dark underbely of music that no one knows about but that's making the record companies millions of dollars? I find it unlikely, and it certainly isn't how record companies are making money off of Rap music, which seems to be your rather baffling point.

I know what you'll say now; it costs nothing to make a Rap album. That's neither here nor there. The production costs are  - to the label, if not the artist - a very minor part of costs involved. PR, manufacturing and distribution probably account for 90% of the cost.

The way record companies operate is they sign twenty acts, toss them out there, see what sticks and dump the nineteen that don't sell. They don't support acts that don't chart for very long - they used to, but that was decades ago.

Also, as far as Scrubs goes, it's certainly not an anomaly. Pretty much every big sitcom from the last ten years is entirely Rap free; Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Seinfeld, Friends, The King of Queens, Two and a Half Men, The World According to Jim, Spin City, Ellen, Dharma and Greg, Will & Grace, The Office, My Name is Earl, etc. Care to try again?

By the way, here's a complete listing of the music in Scrubs, knock yourself out. I saw nothing Raplike in Season 5, and I couldn't be bothered to go through more - it's your prerogative to find the facts to support your statement. Suffice it to say that if you do find one or two, they're in quite a minority position.

Prog has most certainly gotten a bad rap (heh) throughout the years, that's indubitable. The fact that it doesn't have the slightest bearing on what it is we're arguing seems to not deter you, however.

Let's review:

You claim thousands of rappers release albums and sell a lot, and very few rock bands do. Evidently, you only allow the US charts to prove this, although that was never made clear until you were proven wrong. Currently on the Billboard chart's top ten there are four rap-related songs, two of which have rappers only guesting on "actual" songs. There are 17 in the following forty, four of which are similar guest appearances. I admit, that is quite a lot, but not the flood you claim. Its less than half, and only 30% if you count only "pure" Rap, rather than guest appearances.

As for your indignation about me mentioning non-sitcom shows (pointless, mind you, what with the list above), this is your quote on how much Rap there is on TV: "Just check any TV program from USA by cable, any sitcom, any musical program, even MTV". I listed "any TV program from the US".

But I'll give you one of the things from the quote above (don't let it go to your head); there is one hell of a lot of bad Rap on MTV. And that's why there's MTV2, which plays stuff like Muse, Radiohead and PRR.

Oh, and for the record, The Office is a sitcom.

Facts, Ivan. Ain't they a bitch?

It's true that a lot of rap, particularly in the mainstream, and particularly after the success of Puff Daddy and The Fugees (the Kanye West of its time; critically acclaimed, but actually quite vapid), use samples as a way of just basically doing a cover version with the verse removed and (often very bad) rapping stuck in there. This is just pointless.

But using samples to create something that is actually new, like for instance Coldcut or Lionrock do, is perfectly valid. Collage is a valid form of visual art, so why shouldn't that be the case for music? The problem comes when you use a sample and do not add anything significant to it - then you are riding on the coattails of the sampled artist, and that's reprehensible. But it's silly to deride sampling as a tool simply because it's often misused.

Also, another refutation of one Ivan's weird statements. Here's the track list for the Scrubs soundtrack CD:
 

1. Superman - Lazlo Bane
2. All In My Head - Shawn Mullins
3. Fresh Feeling - Eels
4. Good Time - Leroy
5. Good Life - Francis Dunnery
6. New Slang - The Shins
7. Beautiful World - Colin Hay
8. Hold On Hope - Guided By Voices
9. Fighting For My Love - Nil Lara
10. Dracula From Houston - Butthole Surfers
11. Hooch - Everything
12. Hallelujah - John Cale
13. Have It All - Jeremy Kay
14. End Credit Score - Jan Stevens
15. Overkill - Colin Hay

Well, what do you know? Not a rapper in sight. All good, solid band or singer/songwriter action, and I recall no Rap ever used in the series, and I think I've seen every episode bar two, and although my memory isn't the very best in the world I think I'd recall if it was a running theme. Hey, they even had The Technicolor Spree as guests in one episode, and they're borderline Prog, and Francis Dunnery used to be in It Bites. Hm, funny old world, isn't it?


Edited by Teaflax - June 05 2006 at 20:30