Difference Between Psychedelic Rock and Space Rock - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Topic: Difference Between Psychedelic Rock and Space Rock
Posted: October 01 2006 at 02:27

I suggest, let the proto-prog be there as it is, but what could be done is defining where does the line go dividing "Psychedelic prog" and "Proto prog". I recall Alucard suggested a genr called "West coast psych", and maybe this stuff could be included in the proto prog. I'm not sure if there's a collab for proto prog yet named?

Also "Space rock" could be just included as a part of "Psychedelia", as Hawkwind and Amon Düül can be described as Psych easily.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 28 2006 at 12:55

Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

Why not let "Psychedelic prog" consume "Space rock" completelly? It is after all a sub genre of "Psychedelic rock", or at least I comprehend it so.

I quess Hawkwind, Alien Planetscapes, Quarkspace and Amon Düül (the English lineup) fit to "Psychedelic rock" just fine too.

I honestly believe that Proto Prog is differet to Psychedelia.

Proto Prog has elements both of Psychedelia (In most cases) and of Progressive Rock (Also in most cases, in others only influential).

But it's crucial in the understanding Prog, you can't understand a genre or almost anything if you don't understand their proto history before, Proto Prog is really the logical step in evolution from Psyche to Prog.

But at the end I believe a genre called Psychedelia/Proto Prog would work well.

Iván

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: September 28 2006 at 05:00

Bilek wrote:

...as much as you might keep the proto-prog genre (though Ghost Rider seems to be determined to do away with it

) there must certainly be a "psychedelic prog" genre apart from space rock...

Why not let "Psychedelic prog" consume "Space rock" completelly? It is after all a sub genre of "Psychedelic rock", or at least I comprehend it so.

I quess Hawkwind, Alien Planetscapes, Quarkspace and Amon Düül (the English lineup) fit to "Psychedelic rock" just fine too.

Bilek

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Posted: September 28 2006 at 04:25

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

since quote windows would be too confusing, and as Ivan's blue fonts clearly discriminates between ideas, I put myself in

Great...more material to talk about I love that.

no worry; I'll give you more

Krautrock, Prog-Folk and Canterbury scene already includes what can be classified as such, no need to look for possible candidates in Space bands list. (well, there are several German bands in Space genre which actually fit in Krautrock better, but as these are already spaced-out acts, it's no wrong keeping them here)

Canterbury already has a Psyche element blended with Fusion and of course a clear ethnic reference, so I don't see why change things there, the same happens with Kraut, I believe the things are clear there.

as you can see from my previous post in red; I was saying the same thing with you

I said "keep them where they are"...

as for proto-prog; Eetu is definitely right about Pink Floyd, so I have another solution, which I already expressed to Ghost Rider (who was suggesting to abolish "proto-prog" genre completely) in another thread:

Honestly I don't believe Proto Prog must abolished by any means, Psychedelia and Progressive Rock are two different genres, related as an a grandfather to his grandson and nothing more.

Proto Prog is the natural link between both, despite it has some Psyche elements, there has to be a link between Psyche and Prog, things don't happen in one instant, the Romantic musicians of December 31, 1899 didn't turned into Modern Musicians Jan 1, 1900 by art of magic, there was a link that started with Wagner and wiith the Russian Nationalist movement, this last one also called Post Romantic.

The same happens with Psyche, it didn't turned by art of magic into Prog, there had to be a missing link and thuis is Proto Prog.

as much as you might keep the proto-prog genre (though Ghost Rider seems to be determined to do away with it

) there must certainly be a "psychedelic prog" genre apart from space rock...

Arthur Brown Psychedelic? Please man Arthur Brown did something Psychedelic musicians didn't dreamed of, blended several genres, from Prog to Hard Rock with the druggy Psychedelia........... Sweetw@ter added orchestral arrangements and even Cello and Flute to the Farfuisa Organ based Psychedelia, the Moody Blues added a full Symphony Orchestra and there's very little of Psychedelia in them.

I already told I believe "the ones I know" were surely psychedelic... Arthur Brown is certainly not one of them

the only work of Arthur Brown I'm acquainted with is his Schulze collaborations (and it's way past '60's...) OK, I give you right here, and to an extent about Moody Blues (despite their experimentations with symphonic orchestra, they are still classified as psyc. or art rock by other sources, as AMG.. besides, as everyone knows, the orchestra didn't actually accompny them, just filled in...)

Yes, they are the direct ancester but because it's the genre more related, Proto Prog is more a missing link betwen both genres that explain why some bands remained making druggy Farfisa solos shouting against Vietnam and others progressed into full Prog bands.

I also admit your "missing link" claim... nevertheless, many of the bands listed in the archives are less than that missing link (which is characterized by artists like Arthur Brown, Moody Blues, Zappa, even Beatles to an extent): I don't see any imaginative "missing link" characteristics in, say, Jefferson Airplane and Iron Butterfly (great psychedelic jamming, though...)

Sorry, but Zappa has a connection with nobody, Zappa was Zappa and nothing more can describe him, some sites mention Zappa Music as a sub-genre in himself, I don't agree with personally created sub-genres but Frank is the case in which I'm closer to believe, because Zappa is a whole universe in himself.

zappa certainly has a "connection"... otherwise he wouldn't be making "rock" music at all

of course, he has his own style, but his connection to psychedelia (again, in his own way!) cannot be denied IMHO...

just my two Turkish New Cents

Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)

Zoot Allures View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 21:47

darksinger wrote:

Minimalist777 wrote:

Hey the definition for this site seems to indicate a difference between psych rock and space rock. It also gives some examples of bands for each such as Floyd and the Ozric Tentacles for psych and Hawkwind and the English Amon Duul for space. However on Wikipedia it tends to lump Floyd, Ozrics etc. all into "space rock." So basically my question is... Is psych/space rock really two different things or is it just a very slight and rather inqonsiquential difference? Thanks for any help and God Bless, (or Goddess!)

Psych rock-you sit around smoking a huge bong

Space rock-you sit around in your spaceship smoking a huge bong

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 16:51

Bilek wrote:

apparently things got bitter between them, with or without the dugs...

the real mystery to me is that how could Lemmy use a Hawkwind title as the name and launching single for his new band?!?!?!? weren't there some kind of enmity? (besides, motörhead's style is completely different than that of hawkwind... maybe Lemmy wasn't even content with the band's direction, anyway!)

Maybe he used the name Motörhead because its slang for a speed user... which is exactly what he and the rest of the band are? LOL

Makes sense to me.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 13:10

Bilek wrote:

Great...more material to talk about I love that.

as much as I agree with the two collaborators right above; I'd like to add something:

Honestly I don't believe Proto Prog must abolished by any means, Psychedelia and Progressive Rock are two different genres, related as an a grandfather to his grandson and nothing more.

The same happens with Psyche, it didn't turned by art of magic into Prog, there had to be a missing link and thuis is Proto Prog.

let's just change this category's name to "Psychedelic Rock" so as to include mere psychedelic bands (those which were active before 1969), because all of the bands I know from the list (save Deep Purple, which must be included in a new genre as Heavy Prog) are psychedelic, this way or other... The list might even be expanded so as to include Doors, Who etc. (I know, many will object to that)

as much as Ivan is right to express that "psychedelic is not prog"; he already confesses that it was the "direct ancester to prog" (at least to certain styles; symphonic prog has little to do with psychedelia IMHO); this brings us to the very conception of "Proto-Prog".

actually most prog genres have a connection to psychedelia, even Zappa's earlier work can be classified as such. Having a seperate genre as "Psychedelia" will not ignore this connection; however pure psychedelic bands (i.e. those which did not evolve into space and other subgenres) shall remain in their respective places...}

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 27 2006 at 13:14

Kleynan

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 08:53

Porcupine Tree should be moved to Art-Rock in my opinion. They were psychedelic at the start of their career, and have always had some psychedelic tendensies, yes. But they've compassed so many different genres, and that's the trademark of an art-rock band. Sorry if I got a little of subject.

You've just had a heavy session of electroshock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you've been in weeks.

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 08:05

Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

^ He got separated from the band during a tour as he was arrested due possession of drugs. Why the band didn't take him back as he got free, remains mystery to me.

Lemmy was arrested in canada when Hawkwind was doing a North American tour. Initially, the police thought it was either cocaine or heroin, which would have been a felony drug possession. It turned out to be another drug that was actually a misdemeanor possession. The band initially all wanted to fire Lemmy, fearing his drug abuse would jeopardise their tour of the USA, but during the band meeting began to balk. Nik Turner, who was getting sick and tired of everybody wanting to do something and then backing out of it, issued the ultimatum that they either stick by this decision or he would leave. So Lemmy was fired.

This is from what I read in Kris Tait's THIS IS HAWKWIND DO NOT PANIC and from various interviews with Hawkwind.

Edited by darksinger - September 27 2006 at 08:07

Bilek

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 07:43

apparently things got bitter between them, with or without the dugs...

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 07:38

^ He got separated from the band during a tour as he was arrested due possession of drugs. Why the band didn't take him back as he got free, remains mystery to me.

Bilek

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 07:34

Sean Trane wrote:

darksinger wrote:

superprog wrote:

i mean, LSD was what really characterised psych rock right? or practically CREATED it.....so what were Hawkwind on??

a more apt question would be "what weren't Hawkwind on?"

I can't wait to read that book I bought early this year to find out just what they were taking.

Lemmy was always openly pro drugs and sex, but apparently his RnR seemed to take a backseat to his other two activities.

this gets more interesting in view of the fact that Lemmy was sacked from Hawks because of his drug addiction (well, at least some consequences of his addiction)

Edited by Bilek - September 27 2006 at 07:35

darksinger View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 07:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Hi Minimalist: IMO Psychedelic and Space Oriented are two genres that shouldn't be together, I believe both were added originally in some other site because OPink Floyd evolved rom a Psychedelic to a Space band.

Psychedelic is a late 60's movement in USA and UK that was the direct ancester to Prog. Rock had evolved in something more complex than originally was to a more experimental genre...BUT IT'S STILL NOT PROG.

Spáce is a genre based in atmospheric and oneiric sounds, usually the keyboards were used for music and effects, probably an ancester of Electronic Prog..This is a 100% Prog sub-genre.

My two cents.

Iván

Psychedelia and Space rock definately belong together. In fact, space rock I believe is more a theme than a genre and can appear in many different genres. For example, space themed music has been done by Hawkwind, Monster Magnet, Arcturus and Sirius, but I would not put all four of them in the same genre.

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 07:12

darksinger wrote:

superprog wrote:

i mean, LSD was what really characterised psych rock right? or practically CREATED it.....so what were Hawkwind on??

a more apt question would be "what weren't Hawkwind on?"

I can't wait to read that book I bought early this year to find out just what they were taking.

Lemmy was always openly pro drugs and sex, but apparently his RnR seemed to take a backseat to his other two activities.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
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Posted: September 27 2006 at 06:58

superprog wrote:

i mean, LSD was what really characterised psych rock right? or practically CREATED it.....so what were Hawkwind on??

a more apt question would be "what weren't Hawkwind on?"

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 06:26

as much as I agree with the two collaborators right above; I'd like to add something:

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 01:52

I don't know about the history of the establishment of these genres, but currently there is not any collaborator assigned to look after these / it, so the genre is in a slight state of anarchy.

Let's look at the current categorizations:

Psychedelic/Space Rock

Psychedelic Progressive: Emerging in the mid-'60s, as British Invasion and folk-rock bands began expanding the sonic possibilities of their music. These groups confined themselves to the brief, concise verse-chorus-verse patterns of rock & roll, they moved toward more free-form, fluid song structures. Just as important, the groups began incorporating elements of Indian and Eastern music and free-form jazz to their sound, as well as experimenting with electronically altering instruments and voices within the studio. Bands range from early Pink Floyd, and Djam Karet, to newer artists like Phish and Ozric Tentacles. These days, psychedelic commonly informs music space rock and space fusion.

Space Progressive Rock: Space rock tends to be jam-orientated, with synthesizer and guitar effects approximating that propulsive "interstellar traveller" sensibility of vintage science fiction films. Hawkwind is the genre’s key innovator. Examples: Hawkwind, Alien Planetscapes, Quarkspace, Amon Düül (the English lineup).

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

IMO Psychedelic and Space Oriented are two genres that shouldn't be together, I believe both were added originally in some other site because OPink Floyd evolved rom a Psychedelic to a Space band.

In my deviating opinion, PINK FLOYD did not evolve as a "Space rock" band, as their post-psychedelia albums after 1970 are not jam-orientated, and their sound does not correlate with HAWKWIND's style, unlike their early freeform tunes like "Interstellar Overdrive", this underlined in the "Psychedelic Progressive" definition.

One suggestion would be allowing "Psychedelic Progressive" to consume "Space Progressive Rock" completelly as a part of the genre, as the "Space Progressive Rock" is stated to be the common contemporary style of "Psychedelic Progressive". I underlined this section from the last line of "Psychedelic Progressive"'s definition. This would simplify this category, and the bands bolded in "Space Progressive Rock" fit into "Psychedelic Progressive" 100%

Here is the current "Psychedelic / Space Rock" artist list: http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=15

One thing to do before a clean up woul be measuring the interfaces which the genre has with othe categories. I think these would be such:

Indo-Prog/Raga Rock (elements of Indian and Eastern music)

Jazz Rock/Fusion (elements of free-form jazz)

Krautrock (German bands of the early '70s that expanded the sonic possibilities of art and progressive rock)

Prog Folk (Psychedelic folk)

Proto-Prog (genre emerged from mid-60's, related bands are BEATLES, CREAM and early PINK FLOYD)

Prog Related (jam-oriented music)

Maybe also Canterbury Scene, Progressive Electronic and RIO/Avant-Prog? I'm not very experienced with these three genres.

Edited by Eetu Pellonpää - September 27 2006 at 01:54

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 27 2006 at 00:41

Spáce is a genre based in atmospheric and oneiric sounds, usually the keyboards were used for music and effects, probably an ancester of Electronic Prog..This is a 100% Prog sub-genre.

My two cents.

Iván