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Lord_Adon
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Joined: April 25 2013
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Topic: Everything is prog? Posted: May 01 2013 at 17:15 |
Seriously now, the word 'progressive' is supposed to mean progressive.I don't know how you guys feel, but after a while, those elements that might have made some bands progressive for their time now are recycled by bands as if it gives them some novelty that doesn't exist. What do you call this music? It's always called 'prog' but it is not really progressive if you get what I mean.
For example, Dream Theater sparked a whole bunch of imitation bands that wanted nothing but to sound exactly like them, it seems... and I would be rude to name-drop. Can that really count as progressive music?
I find that if the term 'progressive' is wearing me out, I like to go to avant-garde music sub genres, maybe bands that consider themselves both avant-garde and progressive, or experimental. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of power metal bands that really want to be Symphony X, or Dream Theater, but lack what makes those bands exciting.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 17995
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 17:39 |
The terms "prog rock" and "prog metal" literally have no connection whatsoever to rock and metal that is actually progressive, but a bunch of dinosaurs would get mad if we stopped calling them that.
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rushfan4
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 18:26 |
You are such a broken record Colin. Why don't you try and come up with a comment that is progressive and original rather that spouting the same old bullsh*t in every post. Maybe you should start your own prog website. It should be pretty damn easy to maintain given that you would only have to include 4 or 5 bands and you can remove them after you have overlistened to them and no longer consider them progressive anymore.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 18:32 |
I'm sorry, but this looks like yet another "what is 'prog' " thread. Let's see if the folks here are cool with that.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:11 |
*sigh*
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
Edited by Dean - May 01 2013 at 19:14
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What?
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 17995
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:14 |
rushfan4 wrote:
You are such a broken record Colin. Why don't you try and come up with a comment that is progressive and original rather that spouting the same old bullsh*t in every post. Maybe you should start your own prog website. It should be pretty damn easy to maintain given that you would only have to include 4 or 5 bands and you can remove them after you have overlistened to them and no longer consider them progressive anymore. |
Sure, feel free to search through my posts and see what miniscule percentage of them actually has anything to do with your perception of me. Or, keep spouting the same complaints at anybody with broader perspectives than you. Besides, Dean just basically made the exact same (correct) assertion that I did and I don't see you lambasting him
Edited by Triceratopsoil - May 01 2013 at 19:17
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:17 |
Now, now, let's be gentle-manly about it. [With Kelso's voice] Girl fight! Let's get it on! ... Or maybe you should kiss and make up. ... Let's get it on!
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 01 2013 at 19:19
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
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Points: 6402
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:10 |
I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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The Doctor
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Joined: June 23 2005
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:23 |
What a fascinating discussion. I don't think I've ever seen this topic broached here before. Move along. Nothing to see here.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:26 |
^ Nothing to see here but you ... dying inside. (... At least that's what the first emoticon suggests.)
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 01 2013 at 20:26
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:52 |
Progosopher wrote:
I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word. |
I could only presume that there are some people out there who want to hear the opinion of individual users, not what's written on that one page of the site ... but usually opinion is a dust-in-the-wind kind of information.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 01 2013 at 20:52
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The Doctor
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Joined: June 23 2005
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 21:07 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ Nothing to see here but you ... dying inside. (... At least that's what the first emoticon suggests.)
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No wait. Don't tell me. This emoticon suggests that my lips have been horribly disfigured in a bizarre gardening accident right?
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
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Points: 166178
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 21:59 |
Yes. Everything is prog. Absolutely every musical thing in existence is prog.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 17995
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 22:49 |
The Doctor wrote:
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something in your eye?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 22:53 |
^ Well, yeah, he is hitting on you.
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6402
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 23:54 |
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Lord_Adon
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 25 2013
Location: Ghoraland
Status: Offline
Points: 10
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Posted: May 02 2013 at 01:25 |
Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: May 02 2013 at 02:35 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5153
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Posted: May 02 2013 at 03:09 |
Dean wrote:
*sigh*
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
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I propose to make this the top sticky post and name it "Please read before posting anything about Prog vs progressive"
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 2765
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Posted: May 02 2013 at 03:42 |
Progressive music actually does have something to do with actual innovation. Fusing rock with the broader composition of classical represents the farthest that rock can be taken, and the greatest amount of possibilities/variations in the style. It's easier to be original playing prog than any other popular music style (to me this is the most intuitively obvious thing in the world, but some have a hard time with it).
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