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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote refugee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: News of the day
    Posted: July 28 2015 at 12:32
Swedish divers have discovered a sunken submarine in the Baltic Sea:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/27/sweden-wreckage-russian-submarine

Iíve read that itís quite small and yellow. Hereís a pic:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2015 at 03:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2015 at 14:17
Read the second link to Mark Fisher's blog in my post above, wherein he and a co-author offer their answer to the question in an accessible pamphlet they made for a political think-tank they work for.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense." - Meredith Patterson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2015 at 06:56
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Anyone else following the Labour elections?

Crushingly uninspiring stuff, apart from Corbyn who obviously does not care because he has principles. I'm waiting to see how far Labour's Oxbridge public school hivemind go down the red tory rabbithole before they look back and realise that all the socialists, the North, the students and the public sector workers they've left behind were kind of important to their electability.


As you say, crushingly uninspiring. I despair of Labour, and, because of them, we are condemned to a generation of Tory rule, in one guise or another.

When will someone provide a Socialist narrative that is relevant to the 21st century, the times we live in now, not the times we used to live in, or the times we would like to be living in.

Blair had the goodwill and power to change British politics. He failed because of two things. Firstly, his ridiculous pandering to a mad new-con movement in America making bad worldwide situations a damned sight worse. Secondly, not doing what he knew would be the right thing to do for the country, when he had the patronage to do it, namely getting rid of Brown once and for all. The man was a utter disaster area.

What we have now are a bunch of metropolitan elite people running a party utterly disconnected with reality, or the people they purport to represent. The leadership election has three such people, and Corbyn. Burnham, no matter how he tries to impress with his "man of the people" Northern accent, and Cooper are card carrying members of the Brownite metropolitan elite. They know a sound bite, but speak an utterly different language to the rest of us. Kendall is a Blairite, and has failed to bring a new, modern, narrative to her hero's views. Corbyn? Principled, yes, a worthy thing, indeed. But he would take the party right back to the splits and thoughts of the 1980's, not a period which historians readily identify with Labour success. He would also be identified mercilessly with being the man of McCluskey, who is about the worst example of old fashioned trade union hegemony about, a dictator, not a democrat (I am a former trade union activist, and recognise him for what he is very well).

Lastly, Labour has, for decades, taken its core voters utterly for granted, treating them like sh*te. Just look at the state of Northern England, Scotland, and many poor parts of Wales. The Scots gave them a damned good, deserved, kicking, one which will last for a very long time. I also think it will come in Wales, where the Assembly Government is hopelessly inept and regressive.

As I say, I despair. The Tories are utterly triumphant, and will remain so until we have a tectonic shift in British politics.


What does 21st century socialism look like?

Socialism assumes a shared willingness to give up private wealth for the greater good. The trend has been for successive governments to facilitate the transfer of wealth to already mega rich, because it is they who bribe the political class to legislate in their favour.

Until the relationship between BIG business and government is severed completely, socialism doesn't stand a chance and since the Thatcher Reagan years (arguably much earlier than that) conditions have been shaped in such away that challenging that relationship has become the preserve of those portrayed as actual communists (Occupy movement, Chomsky et al) or outright fascists (Tea Party) The middle ground with all it's bank bailouts and EU arse licking is presented as the sensible choice.

Socialism is dead and we're all f***ed..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2015 at 02:49
Mark Fisher, a Marxist philosopher who's basically Britain's answer to Slavoj Zizek, has written something similar in his analysis of the recent election.

I don't think he's quite on the same academic level as Zizek mind you, in large part because his criticism of right-wing ideology isn't anywhere as sharp, but I do find him to have a better sense for the nuts-and-bolts of economic and sociological problem-solving than most European academics inhabiting his end of the spectrum. His writing style also isn't quite as cryptic as Zizek, even if that also makes Fisher less entertaining to read.

See this political manifesto Fisher wrote with someone called Jeremy Gilbert, wherein they lay down a future political programme for the British political left that looks forward to something new.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense." - Meredith Patterson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2015 at 15:32
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Anyone else following the Labour elections?

Crushingly uninspiring stuff, apart from Corbyn who obviously does not care because he has principles. I'm waiting to see how far Labour's Oxbridge public school hivemind go down the red tory rabbithole before they look back and realise that all the socialists, the North, the students and the public sector workers they've left behind were kind of important to their electability.


As you say, crushingly uninspiring. I despair of Labour, and, because of them, we are condemned to a generation of Tory rule, in one guise or another.

When will someone provide a Socialist narrative that is relevant to the 21st century, the times we live in now, not the times we used to live in, or the times we would like to be living in.

Blair had the goodwill and power to change British politics. He failed because of two things. Firstly, his ridiculous pandering to a mad new-con movement in America making bad worldwide situations a damned sight worse. Secondly, not doing what he knew would be the right thing to do for the country, when he had the patronage to do it, namely getting rid of Brown once and for all. The man was a utter disaster area.

What we have now are a bunch of metropolitan elite people running a party utterly disconnected with reality, or the people they purport to represent. The leadership election has three such people, and Corbyn. Burnham, no matter how he tries to impress with his "man of the people" Northern accent, and Cooper are card carrying members of the Brownite metropolitan elite. They know a sound bite, but speak an utterly different language to the rest of us. Kendall is a Blairite, and has failed to bring a new, modern, narrative to her hero's views. Corbyn? Principled, yes, a worthy thing, indeed. But he would take the party right back to the splits and thoughts of the 1980's, not a period which historians readily identify with Labour success. He would also be identified mercilessly with being the man of McCluskey, who is about the worst example of old fashioned trade union hegemony about, a dictator, not a democrat (I am a former trade union activist, and recognise him for what he is very well).

Lastly, Labour has, for decades, taken its core voters utterly for granted, treating them like sh*te. Just look at the state of Northern England, Scotland, and many poor parts of Wales. The Scots gave them a damned good, deserved, kicking, one which will last for a very long time. I also think it will come in Wales, where the Assembly Government is hopelessly inept and regressive.

As I say, I despair. The Tories are utterly triumphant, and will remain so until we have a tectonic shift in British politics.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2015 at 15:31
^ Jesus that's straight out of Jaws --
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2015 at 14:53
don't get in the water... LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TGM: Orb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2015 at 14:41
Anyone else following the Labour elections?

Crushingly uninspiring stuff, apart from Corbyn who obviously does not care because he has principles. I'm waiting to see how far Labour's Oxbridge public school hivemind go down the red tory rabbithole before they look back and realise that all the socialists, the North, the students and the public sector workers they've left behind were kind of important to their electability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2015 at 10:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 13:32
Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:

According to The Guardian the Greek government will now accept even harsher conditions than they rejected:

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

Then itís back to business as usual, only a bit worse than before. Prepare for strikes and demonstrations.
Imho, there are three major things that are necessary for the Greek goverment to do immidiately:  to leave eurozone just with one revolutionary *f*ck off* to the terrorists from the banks and related malakas, nationalization of big systems, and then to print drahmas but as non-credit money aswell.
 
Quote Non-credit money is not debt, it's a gift.
Non-credit money is the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation (dM) as percentage (k) of existing quantity of money in circulation (M).

dM = kM ; k = (supply Ė demand)/demand ;

If non-credit money is emitted according to the cited formula, inflation cannot exist. Also, taxes are anulled for the amount of non-credit money. The consumers pay less and producers get more than today, in the order of credit money.

Non-credit money is created from the growth of economic rationality (no war, no economic crisis). The growth rate of mankind progress is equal to the growth rate of non-credit money. There is national and there is world non-credit money. We must create both national and world order of non-credit money.

There is real cost. If money is emitted as a gift whose cost is zero, money as a gift can determine real cost. Opposite to, money as a credit has cost equal to debt which is added on real cost. Nominal cost (real cost + debt) is greater than real cost. In credit money system, inflation is necessary and real money cannot exist. Real money is money as a gift. Only mathematically perfected economy is formula dM = kM.

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Today, money is put into circulation in the form of credits.

Such credit money is always in short supply.

Increasing the money supply is necessary both because of increases in production and for making up for the money lost due to slowing down of velocity of money circulation.

The required additional quantity of money in circulation is definitive (final), because it is intended to stay in circulation permanently. This cannot be credit money, which is in circulation temporarily, because credits must be returned.

If the rate of increase in quantity of credit money in circulation is such that it creates such an inflation where the rate of increase in quantity of credit money in circulation is greater than the rate of price increases, then the difference in these rates is really non-credit money, which functions as the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation.

If all the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation were immediately emitted as non-credit money, i.e. gift, inflation would disappear.

Movement for non-credit money proposes that the National Parliament issues a Money Law, containing the following:

  1. Banks may issue credits only up to the amount of collected savings.
  2. The creation of new money by issuing credits above the amount of collected savings is prohibited.
  3. The necessary additional quantity of money in circulation, which is printed in the Money Printing Institution, is deposited to the account of the Pension Fund.
  4. Money is put into circulation by paying pensions from the account of the Pension Fund.

Such a mode of money emission secures endless price stability, without inflation and deflation.

Contributions (or taxes) for pensions are thus canceled and the economy is less burdened.

By selling goods to pension beneficiaries, producers secure profits, as pure accumulation for further increase of production (without having to take credits).



Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 14:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote refugee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 13:04
According to The Guardian the Greek government will now accept even harsher conditions than they rejected:

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

Then itís back to business as usual, only a bit worse than before. Prepare for strikes and demonstrations.
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 14:18
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

this whole situation has been completely bungled by both sides.

grexit is the only way out
Aside from a few families that serve the banking terrorists as needed local comprador bourgeoisie, money did not go to the Greek people, as it falsely represents by those right-wing oriented media.
It's actually a simple "recipe": firstly, I destroy your economy. Then I open my factory, and your country is my guarantor. Then you raised your credit from my bank, just to buy my goods. Such a failure, you raised a loan, to save my bank, and the same bank is giving a credit to you. You're broke, of course, and I'm taking your big state-owned companies, your fertile land, sources of mineral water, islands, whetever is interesting to me. And we both speak German perfectly LOL


Edited by Svetonio - July 08 2015 at 14:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 20:38
this whole situation has been completely bungled by both sides.

grexit is the only way out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 19:46
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

damn right it can get worse.. if they default and leave the Eurozone


then they are going stoneage Roger... and those billions they owe. .will hang over that country for a generation.  NO WAY the EU or Germany willl forgive that debt.  Right or wrong.. things are what they are. Greece has zero leverage here. Life isn't fair.. reality is what is for Greece. Unfortunately their leadership is about to find out those cheers for standing up to big bad Germany will soon turn to anger as things get even worse than any austerity measures brought....

bah.. it is my bedtime...  as you said.. interesting times. 


Was never going to get better with the EU/IMF's stance. Greece can at least default and eventually rebuild if it gets out of the euro rather than taking on further permanent spiralling debt at the cost of any ability to decide how to repay their creditors (by e.g. tax rises). Going to be interesting seeing how painful the collapse is and how the markets and the EU try to punish the Greeks for straying from the orthodoxy.

As per IMF's own best case scenario (of 1% average annual GDP growth) it would still take Greece 3 decades to pay off their obligations.  And there's no way they are growing that fast with an expenditure squeeze.  As I said earlier in the thread, the obligations of a sovereign nation have to be handled differently from that of a typical debtor.  And hey, big corporations do get their debt restructured.  It is an annual carnival in India ever since demand dried up in the last couple of years, putting companies that overbet on growth in deep trouble.  They just keep their debt restructured without paying.  I am not saying that is right but I do have trouble understanding why the largesse that is routinely extended to corporations should not be extended to a developed nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 19:23
Oh how I wish them well....our friends of this very site....saying my prayers for you! 

It must be absolutely terrifying.  Hug
Ours is a world too careless with its memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TGM: Orb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 11:55
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

damn right it can get worse.. if they default and leave the Eurozone


then they are going stoneage Roger... and those billions they owe. .will hang over that country for a generation.  NO WAY the EU or Germany willl forgive that debt.  Right or wrong.. things are what they are. Greece has zero leverage here. Life isn't fair.. reality is what is for Greece. Unfortunately their leadership is about to find out those cheers for standing up to big bad Germany will soon turn to anger as things get even worse than any austerity measures brought....

bah.. it is my bedtime...  as you said.. interesting times. 


Was never going to get better with the EU/IMF's stance. Greece can at least default and eventually rebuild if it gets out of the euro rather than taking on further permanent spiralling debt at the cost of any ability to decide how to repay their creditors (by e.g. tax rises). Going to be interesting seeing how painful the collapse is and how the markets and the EU try to punish the Greeks for straying from the orthodoxy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 05:44
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Excellent article on this issue:



Very interesting article.
It's a great article. Probably the best article about Greece that I'v been read today.

Edited by Svetonio - July 06 2015 at 05:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moogtron III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 01:51

Very interesting article.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 01:30
Look at these faces! The highest Greek clergy, Archbishop of Athens Ieronimos & Co., who urged the Greeks to vote "yes" to austerity measures.




Even one who does not understand the economy, when sees these faces, that one must vote the opposite of what these guys urge LOL




Edited by Svetonio - July 06 2015 at 01:31
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