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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tori Amos
    Posted: October 11 2009 at 05:32
OK I might be reaching here now but  does anyone else see the case for putting her in prog related?
Her work is almost always heavily conceptual and diverse.
For both Strange Little Girls and American Doll Posse she created fictional personae with back stories to dress up and perform as and both Scarlet's Work and The Beekeeper had clearly elaborated concepts/stories. Generally there are themes to the albums, eclectic musical mixes, bizarre/deep lyrics and she had made songs of more than 9 minutes in length.
I'm prepared to be shot down here but I'd like someone who's actually listened to her discography to do it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 06:21
I think we had this discussion. I'll check.

Yes a rather lenghty one.



Edited by Snow Dog - October 11 2009 at 06:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 13:58
Well it's nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks so. Scarlet's Walk (I called it Scarlet's Work before by accident) is probably her most clearly proggy work but basically all her albums are concepts.
 
I would say Amos is more proggy than her "mother" Kate Bush and Bush is here. Amos is lacking Bush's relationship to Gilmour/Gabriel but she certainly attempts deep/profound music that disregards genre.
 
I suppose the objection to Amos is that "Well we may as well let in Elton John" or something but no- letting in Death doesn't mean you have to let in Slayer and then Metallica and then Megadeth and so on until we've got Whitesnake and Poison in here or something.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 14:35
Saying that we may as well let in Elton John would be really weak, and each artist is evaluated on its own merits (of course people make associations with other acts which is fair if it's apple vs. apple comparisons).  Truth be told, from my too limited knowledge, I'd rather see Elton John in, but he has already been rejected for Prog Related (not that I would care much to see EJ in, but I wonder if Tori Amos made anything as prog-sounding as "Funeral for a Friend" or auditioned for any Prog bands as Elton John did, and was rejected for, King Crimson and Gentle Giant... plus there's the Elton Dean connection).

I haven't listened to that full album, but I have yet to hear Tori Amos music that sounds sufficiently prog to my ear (I have checked out music that was suggested as being her most Prog and it didn't strike me as that suitable for the archives, but people hear with different ears and make different associations.... Sometimes one does need to hear full albums to get the Prog flavour).  Obviously many do hear proggishness in her music, but I think most would think Prog Related at best, and getting into Prog Related is a diffcicult process with strict guidelines that include the artist/band influencing Prog as well as being influenced by Prog (as Kate Bush is a Prog Related artist, being influenced by Kate Bush would not be sufficient, that would make her more of a related to prog related artist),  I haven't read through the other thread to see if any conclusions were reached.  Crossover would be the only other category to consider, I think, but I could not see her there based on what I know.  I do concede that I do not know enough.  And having concept albums is, of course, not nearly enough.  Alice Copper, for instance, isn't in either (though I might think he has a case).

Anyway, discussion really should be continued in the last Tori Amos thread.

Of course there is merit to the suggestion as she has been suggested a few times and various people have supported the addition:

Topic: Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives
Forum: Suggest New Bands and Artists

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Topic: I suggest Tori Amos
Forum: Suggest New Bands and Artists


"The first step on the path to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance" (paraphrased from Plato).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 15:04
I think the problem here is people listening to songs- listen to any one track from American Doll Posse and you might not know why I'm suggesting her, but listen to the album as a whole (and read the background material about the five personalities she lived and dressed as to create the album) and you may get an idea.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 15:29
Aside from people not having heard full, appropriate albums, a problem seems to be that a sufficient case has not been built for Tori Amos fulfilling the necessary criteria for her gaining access to Prog Related: From, hyperlink ahead --> Prog Related

Quote Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, AND

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, AND

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
...
Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre, but they have contributed in some form [to] the development of Progressive Rock.  The inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it's a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.


Having proggy albums is not enough, she should also be infleunced by Prog artists and influence Prog herself.
"The first step on the path to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance" (paraphrased from Plato).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 15:59
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Aside from people not having heard full, appropriate albums, a problem seems to be that a sufficient case has not been built for Tori Amos fulfilling the necessary criteria for her gaining access to Prog Related: From, hyperlink ahead --> Prog Related

Quote Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, AND

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, AND

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
...
Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre, but they have contributed in some form [to] the development of Progressive Rock.  The inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it's a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.


Having proggy albums is not enough, she should also be infleunced by Prog artists and influence Prog herself.


this can also be said about Toto which have bin suggested over 20 times, while qualifiing for atleast two of the points that relates a band to Prog-Related (and probably much more then Tori Amos), but i dont complain Toto is my favorite band but i can understand the reason why they got rejected. Even though they have as many  technical chops as Yes, can play as technical as Dream Theater and Rush, can create New Age and Ambients as good as Brian Eno. and have playd evry genre on the face of the earth.

And i think they are atleast Crossover, but also some Neo-prog elements and have inlfuence form prog bands such as Pink Floyd, Genesis and Yes but blends it with Jazz, RnB, Soul, Pop and AoR Angry ( i hate that word that ruins all the chanses for so many bands to get honorabel creditt=

I havent heard alot to Tori but what ive heard sound good.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2009 at 16:41
Alright, I was expecting to lose this anyway. It's just I don't have such a technical grasp of what prog actually is and mentally it's easy to confuse being "prog" with just being generally wierd/arty. But it's right to have more stringent specifications or otherwise everyone who's ever done anything a bit unexpected from Bjork to Pearl Jam to REM (and hey, Green Day did two rock operas) would be in.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2009 at 07:04
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I think we had this discussion. I'll check.

Yes a rather lenghty one.


Oh no, we have not discussed this at all. LOL


Edited by Slartibartfast - October 12 2009 at 09:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2009 at 07:08
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I think we had this discussion. I'll check.

Yes a rather lenghty one.


Oh no, we have not discussed this at all. LOL

I noticed we have a new member on this site..Ford Prefect no less!Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2009 at 08:45

I fully support Textbook's suggestion for prog-related (as is probably well-known by now).

When I read the comparisons to Elton John and Journey here, it's clearly because those people have never actually sat down and listened to one of he albums, especially the later ones.

For a woman she's thematically surprisingly like Jon Anderson on steroids (...or testosterone?)  Big smile

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2009 at 09:45
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

I fully support Textbook's suggestion for prog-related (as is probably well-known by now).

When I read the comparisons to Elton John and Journey here, it's clearly because those people have never actually sat down and listened to one of he albums, especially the later ones.

For a woman she's thematically surprisingly like Jon Anderson on steroids (...or testosterone?)  Big smile


That's weird, I've never considered her Jon related but I can kind of see that.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2009 at 11:24
I have 6 of  her albums and I realy like her.
She isn't prog and I don't realy care much for definitions so I do think she is deep enough to be put in prog related but if this is the price I should pay for not including here bands like Toto or REM then I will gladly pay it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2009 at 13:03
mmm... I don't know why The Chroma Key is consider prog and Tori Amos don't... really... I really support the fact that she make conceptual albums... and she's very experimental... to say something... The Beatles aren't really prog but they included it... so I don't see why she cannot be prog-related... and her music is not similar to Elton John... so I support the idea... Tori Amos made great music, with good instrumentation, complex harmonies, a lot of experimentation and doing Conceptual albums... I say yes... she should be...!!!
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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