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Prog does not groove?

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Neelus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog does not groove?
    Posted: October 27 2012 at 07:07
Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 
I tried to explain to him that complex rhythms has the ability to groove fantastically, it all depends where you place the accents.  He basically closed the argument by saying that most people like to groove, and few like prog, so let the evidence speak for itself.  We ended up chatting about the Allman Brothers, a band we both like, and agreed to disagree on the previous subject.  I dont know, does prog rock not groove?
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:02
Depends.  I guess somebody from the 'outside looking in' like a blues rock fan is going to observe some general trends and not specific examples.  I think in the 70s, it was mainly GG and JT that grooved - and being that GG loved funk and JT loved the blues, that's a no brainer.   The rest wrote some groovy stuff once in a while but not most of the time.  KC really began to groove only once they got Belew on board (though I don't know if the change was because of him or because Fripp changed his approach).  I wouldn't say Yes or Genesis groove a whole lot (glad if they do for some other listeners), similar thoughts on ELP.   Rush can groove but Rush can do some out and out hard rock so that's not surprising. 

But there must be tons of groovy fusion stuff and maybe your friend would enjoy that more if he wasn't already aware of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote irrelevant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:08
I absolutely hate the "no soul" label that sometimes gets put to anything with time sig changes and weird chords, or just anything the listener is not used to... Really f**kin' gets on my nerves. Not liking a certain type of music is fine, but saying said type of music has no soul is an insult, not to mention an unprovable accusation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:10
^^^  And yeah, I forgot to mention that part in my comment.   Folk music doesn't really groove in the blues rock sense of the word either, but you are not telling me it doesn't have soul because it doesn't have groove.  At its best, it is, IMO again, more soulful than blues rock.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:17
It's just a lazy way of dismissing something you don't like.  Instead of admitting your own shortcoming ("I wasn't able to get it"), you blame it on the music ("The music failed to interest me").  In a tiny way, it's a rhetorical device aimed at saving face.  Not that everybody has to "get it", but saying that it's the music's fault implies that everyone who does "get it" is being "suckered" in some way, which is the insulting part.

edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.


Edited by HolyMoly - October 27 2012 at 09:19
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:30
By his argument Beethoven and Wagner and the rst have no soul either. Patently absurd. No...the reason more people are into blues is that it demands less from the listener.


Prog does groove.  It grooves on more levels.


Edited by Snow Dog - October 27 2012 at 09:35
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:16
Originally posted by HolyMoly

Edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.
Sure you did! ... and I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

Neelus, rogerthat mentioned that JT could groove and had a leaning towards the blues. It seems like that friend of yours haven't heard JT's Aqualung. Now your friend tells you that it does not groove at all, and he tells you that it has no soul. I do not deeply love that record, but one of the reasons why I do love it is because it has a soul. Ergo, it seems that your pal must have heard only a few tracks from the prog realm ... and if he did, ... [sighing]. GG's "Proclamation" ! ... Damn, that thing can groove!


Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 27 2012 at 10:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:29
I was just about to talk Steve out of his pants on accord of him hitting the point, but our dear American Russian (or is that the other way round?;-) ninja'd me.

Berlin school electronic doesn't groove - neither does ambient, yet both of them can be incredibly beautiful.
Still, saying prog hasn't got groove is just about the biggest nonsense. SBB, Can, Amon Duul ll, Mwandishi Band, Miles, Magma, Caravan, Audience, Secret Oyster, Zao, Nil, COS, Moving Gelatine Plates, Arthur Browns Kingdom Come, Gong and on and on and on and.................. Practically most of the Canterbury, Fusion, Zeuhl as well as a good portion of the Krautrock acts all groove like gravy.

Edited by Guldbamsen - October 27 2012 at 10:31
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:40
Prog definitely GROOVES!! It grooves with vigor and conviction.

For an Ambient groove rock CHROMA KEY offers a great sound with in the groove sound of things

Dead Can Dance have a groove element as well. Oh and JETHRO TULL's AQUALUNG is a grooving masterpiece that even combines some elements of JAZZ. All in all, prog grooves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:56
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I was just about to talk Steve out of his pants on accord of him hitting the point, but our dear American Russian (or is that the other way round?;-) ninja'd me.

A Russian in America. Big smile

Oh, s$%t ... Jazz Rock/Fusion! How could I forget about it in the first place?! What do you think we have it for, $%^&ing off? Soft Machine and MO! Now you tell me their music is not soulful and groovy. I also forgot to append to my argument that groove and soul do not always go hand in hand ... but after reading the posts above I figured that has already been done. I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty. Perchance it's the polar opposite of a groove.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 27 2012 at 10:59
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zargasheth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:19
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

GG's "Proclamation" ! ... Damn, that thing can groove!


That's exactly what I thought of when I saw the title of this thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:26
Rings another bell in my head - Holger Czukay's Movies. Check it out and tell me it has no soul and no grooves. One of the most progressive things Czukay has done thus far, I say.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wilmon91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:28
Of course you can find a lot of nice grooves in prog. Grooviness is one of the quailties I value the most (I'm a drummer by the way).
 
But if someone says a prog tune doesn't groove, there may be many reasons. Prog has a lot of variation and may be disuptive. Other genres stick to one groove from beginning to end, while prog may introduce one part and suddenly change character completely. That can be a good or bad depending on which song and which person you ask. For example, in my opinion "Interior Lulu" by Marillion is great up until the point were it goes crazy, starting with a drum fill and continuing in a totally different tempo and feeling, and a crazy synth solo. I think it was a bit too disruptive in relation to the original laid-back almost bossanova feeling. Other times I really welcome changes in character. For example, "Ice Nice" by Saga has a moog (or rhodes maybe) groove in a soft jazzy rhythm feeling but no drums. In the middle of the song it changes to a different tempo, different groove and drums come in, 8 bars, and then - moog solo. The song is groovy all the way, but in two different ways, and not without colorful harmonies and atmospgheres. Saga is one of my favourite bands because groove is a big part of what they are about. But it's not everything.
 
Funk for example, is solely about groove. But music can be more, it can be everything, and that's what prog is - everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:39
Originally posted by Neelus

Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 
...
 
WOW ... another religious expert!
 
Such a progressive thought ... WOW ... I'm stunned!
 
Cool
 
Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:42
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Rings another bell in my head - Holger Czukay's Movies. Check it out and tell me it has no soul and no grooves. One of the most progressive things Czukay has done thus far, I say.
 
Both this album and "On The Way To The Peak Of The Normal" are fabulous and way out there ... but this is too far out and out there for most listeners, and on top of it Holger himself did not like the results and told me so in an email sequence, which I thought was really sad ... both albums were fabulous, as was Can's "Landed" which had a lot of him going crazy with tapes and what not ... with effects and weirdness all over the place. But he got lazy after that and went on to do some drone music ... such a waste of a talented "painter" of the landscape of a mind replaced by simplistic stuff that is more "new age" than it is ... musically inclined ... for MY tastes and preferences. I just don't think his later stuff even merits the word "progressive" and fits more in the "I don't care" area of creativity than it does anything else.
 
Sad waste of talent, if you ask me ... as a mystic used to say ... potential is crap!


Edited by moshkito - October 27 2012 at 11:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:48
What about Tangerine Dream? Think they have a huge groove to their sound, especially their 80's work
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HolyMoly

Edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.
Sure you did! ... and I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

Well, thanks.  I was distracted as I was writing and after posting it realized it wasn't as well put as would have liked.  I didn't really address "groove" so much as just the general dislike of prog music by most people.  Made me sound like a cranky old man, and didn't really address the topic.  But I'm glad you got the gist.  David too.  Sometimes when we say things and don't really express them well, people take it the wrong way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wilmon91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 12:26
One reason that prog may lack soulfulness is the tendency that the musicians are so content with their abilities as instrumentalists that the singing becomes compromised. Bad or unexpressive singing can ruin any music regardless of how good it is otherwise. But good singers aren't common in any genre. The typical blues singer bores me to death. And that goes for most blues bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 12:47
I had a quick listen to Proclamation by GG on Youtube (what a groove Smile), and the following 2 comments there made me smile, considering the reason I listened to the song is based on this thread...
This comment was by "jak dracula":
"This is one of the worst things I've ever heard. He's singing out of key, and there's no groove, nothing of merit what-so-ever, it's like a group of people taking turns doing finger exercises. "
And this was a response to that comment by "ArrestedDecayBand" (wonder if this is a PA member):
"1: You don't understand anything outside of the scales in more standard music. 2: Music doesn't have to be simple. It can be simple, and that's good and well, but I'd be sad if nobody made fun, complex music like this in the world. 3: Shifting time signatures and meters does not mean there is no groove. Not to mention a song does not need a groove to be good, not all music has to be something you can dance to."
I would like to mention that the above response received the most thumbs up LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 13:34
Originally posted by Neelus

This comment was by "jak dracula": 

"This is one of the worst things I've ever heard. He's singing out of key, and there's no groove, nothing of merit what-so-ever, it's like a group of people taking turns doing finger exercises."

LOL I'm sorry; I just bursted. Big smile S%^t like this makes me laugh. LOL


Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 27 2012 at 13:35
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