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Prog does not groove?
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Progosopher View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:16
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Here's a bunch by King Crimson:

21st Century Schizoid Man
Pictures Of A City
Cat Food
Indoor Games
Ladies Of The Road
Sailor's Tale
Easy Money
Talking Drum
Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II
Lament
Red
One More Red Nightmare
Providence (bass solo section)
Indiscipline
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Matte Kudasai
Frame By Frame
Sartori In Tangier
Waiting Man
Heartbeat
Man With An Open Heart
Three With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever.  Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.
Songs that I sang before come softly once again, and the shadows of uncounted journeys cross my way. -- Hermann Hesse
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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Posts: 7529 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:58
^ Now that recently there had been a few mentions of Starless and Bible Black, ... come on - it is King Crimson's turn when it comes to grooving. Take the whole of that album; about 50% of it is grooving, improvisations here and there. Gees, this blues-rock fanatic is not gonna have a homework assignment; he is gonna have a freaking semester project to complete with our suggestions.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 28 2012 at 02:06
"Composing itself ... is a simplifying process, just trying to pick some (strands?) out of the clamour in the head." - Robert Wyatt.
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Posts: 3331 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 03:54
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If I understand correctly what is prog, and I have a feeling for what grooves, then this just drowned me in an ocean of groovy jazzy funky progginess (starting around the 3:40min mark all the way to the end)




Edited by Neelus - October 28 2012 at 07:34
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Posts: 11529 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 08:02
To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

Edited by HolyMoly - October 28 2012 at 08:03
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Because some people want steady music and not necessarily something with lots of changes, surprises and disruptions.  It's after all a party and not a focused listening session.  I mentioned GG as some groovy prog but even that has a stop start quality that a lot of prog generally does.  Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with music that relies on the momentum of a steady groove either.  
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Apollo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 11:50
Originally posted by Progosopher

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Here's a bunch by King Crimson:

21st Century Schizoid Man
Pictures Of A City
Cat Food
Indoor Games
Ladies Of The Road
Sailor's Tale
Easy Money
Talking Drum
Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II
Lament
Red
One More Red Nightmare
Providence (bass solo section)
Indiscipline
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Matte Kudasai 
Frame By Frame
Sartori In Tangier
Waiting Man
Heartbeat
Man With An Open Heart
Three With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove. 
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever.  Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.
YES!

Talking Drum is one of the best grooves ever. Also, Thela Hun Ginjeet Smile


Edited by Apollo2112 - October 28 2012 at 11:51
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friso View Drop Down
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Posts: 1766 		Post Options Post Options   Quote friso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 12:20
In general prog does nog grove, but of course we can mention bands like Can, Magma and others that make up an exception. It is true that a strong emphasis on the rhythmical dimension of music can make it more easily acceptable for many peoples ears.
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Posts: 32 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Matthew _Gill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 12:46
Archive groove, perhaps too much for Prog purists.
The Official top 10 greatest solos.
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Posts: 5868 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Bearded Bard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 13:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty.
This!
 
That said, of course prog can groove. A lot of good examples of that in this thread. Neelus, your friend is simply wrong! Go straight up to him and tell him that...or not, if you want to keep the friendshipWink
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Posts: 97 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 14:12
Music mustn't attract too much attention to itself in order to stand the party test.
Professional dancers are more likely to enjoy a dancing challenge.

Some tracks I'd dance only in my office really...
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Posts: 327 		Post Options Post Options   Quote wjohnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 14:42
Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. 
If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions then Prog has as much soul as any other genre- perhaps more than some (Pop comes to mind here!).
From the melancholy of Talk Talks's Spirit of Eden, or the overwhelming sadness in Pain of Salvation's Remedy Lane to sheer joy in large swathes of Yes, Genesis , Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings.
I'm sure everyone has their own list, but  for music to touch us, and move us is for it to have its most lasting effect. I can appreciate some music, enjoy it on an intellectual level, but if it doesn't move me I won't listen to it very often.
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Posts: 28743 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SaltyJon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:00
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

queue Can here

also queue Magma here
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Posts: 4631 		Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:17
Prog grooves as well as blues, but it has more than three chords  Tongue
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Posts: 7529 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:47
^ Big smile That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.

Originally posted by wjohnd

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 28 2012 at 15:48
"Composing itself ... is a simplifying process, just trying to pick some (strands?) out of the clamour in the head." - Robert Wyatt.
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Posts: 2494 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 16:27
Originally posted by HolyMoly

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?
A lot of this also has to do with familiarity, with the artist as well as with the style.  I actually did this once, and yes, it stopped almost everything.  Popular so-called dance music from Disco onwards has never actually made me want to dance.  That a groove is more than just a good beat is pertinent.  For me, the whole band has to be adding to the groove for it to work - it is not just a matter of the rythym section laying it down.  The lead instruments, including the vocals, can add to a good groove.  But by groove, I do not mean just danceable.  It's got to get my head and mind moving as well as my body.  Two of my favorite grooves are sections found in extended suites - Echoes by Pink Floyd and Part II of Waves by Jade Warrior.
Songs that I sang before come softly once again, and the shadows of uncounted journeys cross my way. -- Hermann Hesse
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Posts: 4631 		Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 17:00
Soul is very important in rock music. What else could you sell to the Devil?Wink
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Posts: 1182 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 18:22
Originally posted by HolyMoly

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

You can only dance to music that is completely uniform and predictable (unless you're really good at it or know the song beforehand). Very little prog music fulfills both criteria.
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Posts: 7529 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 19:55
Originally posted by octopus-4

Soul is very important in rock music. What else could you sell to the Devil?Wink

LOL
"Composing itself ... is a simplifying process, just trying to pick some (strands?) out of the clamour in the head." - Robert Wyatt.
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Posts: 4741 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 20:43
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

^ Big smile That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.

Originally posted by wjohnd

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.

He's a blues rock fanatic, so what else would you expect?  In all likelihood, let alone prog, he probably doesn't have time for mostly any European music forms.  
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