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Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.
    Posted: December 04 2012 at 07:52
Originally posted by Blacksword

Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.
 
I would disagree there ... Italian bands were much more influenced by the orchestra and many of them did a lot of orchestral type of work ... simply with electric instruments. You can say Keith did the same thing, but you can not argue with Italy's history of music next to England ... opera alone would render you crazy and ethnocentric.
 
The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
Ange was as good, if not better than Genesis will ever be. Mona Lisa and the school that came out of that group that were Ange copies. Italy had so many of them, it's hard to even mention it, and you might even sit and listen to Aqua Fragile one day ... so you get the idea. Spain had a massive number of bands that looked up to YES ... almost to a ridiculous point, but they did some awesome things ... Granada, Azahar and others. Germany had many of them, like Wallenstein, as part of the Cosmic Couriers (not intentionally I don't think!), but many bands also copied Nektar, like Message. Jane/Eloy were/are sister bands that shared some members. Grobbschnitt could be considered symphonic in their use of the leyboards ... though Mr. Eroc was quite different and crazy on his own ... and fun!
 
There were many in America as well ... but not many of them made it to the radio by the time that the FM band went commercial in the mid 70's. I can go over my record collection easily enough and list bands that you never heard off ... and then you say that the music didn't exist!  MUSIC WAS ALWAYS THERE ... it's our ears that weren't! Plain and simple. And it's still a hard battle to open up ears here, specially in a thread like this! Yes, Genesis and ELP were not the front runners ... they were a part of it all just like everyone else. It was a continuing process ... but for you to say that no band had a keyboard at the Fillmore ... you know you are incorrect ... though the place was so cheap that no having keyboards was much easier ... but even Santana was highly progressive already at the time! It's a Beautiful Day! Jefferson Airplane ... and many others.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll ChoiceVotesPoll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
(www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164)
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 08:10
Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc.
These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other.

I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK.
Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many.

...
 
I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!
 
And we gave up!
 
This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 09:40
And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


Edited by sagichim - December 04 2012 at 09:45
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 11:14
Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 11:56
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc. These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other. I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK. Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many. ...

 

I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!

 

And we gave up!

 

This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!


That is why the right kind of exposure is important both on a nation platform and as a music platform. They go hand in hand. England had achieved this well in my eyes. :)
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 15:22
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
LOLClapLOLLOLClapLOLLOLLOLClap
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 15:54
Its a label, classification that gets discussed about a lot....Symphonic, neo.....so on. Its like asking what sells more in <insert country name> Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 
So to see the US with the highest number leaves a lot of questions in my mind as to who/what is classifying and is it right.....if there is a such a thing as right/wrong.
      
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 16:05
Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 17:47
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!
      
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 18:14
Originally posted by Catcher10

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!


Quite right.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 19:52
^ im gonna be a b*****d and choose diet coke and it's the worst one for you!!! Bah hee hee hee hee
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 20:12
Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:00
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!


Quite right.
Actualy Coke or Pepsi - both undrinkable to me because you might as well eat spoonfuls of sugar...
Give me a pint of Joseph Holts finest bitter anyday LOL
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:35
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
Dean ... that poll applies to THIS BOARD ... whose fans and folks are much more educated about this than otherwise, which would lend a very slanted eye to that poll.
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
We were there ... and in LIVE RADIO ... with BIG fm STATIONS, and in that commercial environment, you never heard ... a foreign word ... well, in LA you heard some folks make fun of the spanish speaking thing, but even then, those were toned down severely because of the sensitivity of the issues ... and the fact that LA DID have spanish speaking stations that would gladly unload on the big name money if they abused the priviledge! AND, at least folks like Wolfman Jack made a point of closing down the barriers in between these ... but even he did not play a lot of the spanish stuff ... as he was more centered on grabbing the english-speaking spanish population ... which many years later, was the audience that gave you Univision, and Galavision ... that grew up during the World Soccer games ... by blowing out ESPN/Disney and others by making 10 times the money! Respect!
 
Bands like PFM, Banco, Le Orme, Ange and others ... were kind of a miracle ... that they got heard ... and Guy in Santa Barbara was one of the folks that played these indiscriminally. And many folks in LA KNEW that ... specially at JEM, Moby Disk, Tower and the Warehouse in Westwood -- probably the biggest importers of foreign stuff in those days ... I think that Archie Patterson (Eurock) can give a better discussion of the LA market than anyone else we know ... mine is just an overview by comparison! Archie was/is part of the importer business and he would know the demand and what worked and sold.
 
Again ... please read this comment ... while Golden Earring is being played ... "it's not rock'n'roll" ... and Guy replies ... "who cares! It's great music ... " and the song is "Are You Receicing Me?" ... this defines "progressive music" and what you and I are doing a lot more than anything else!
 
Stop comparing this board to events that happened 30/40 years ago. The music we love "made it" a lot more than the reasons that you and I know ... and not just because of a place where they all can have coffee and crumpets and tea and .... you WELL KNOW that we did not have a board like this, THEN (to quote PC and DM!) ... and we found the music ... it was 10 to 20 times harder in Southern California!


Edited by moshkito - December 05 2012 at 08:01
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:44
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc. These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other. I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK. Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many. ...

 I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!

 

And we gave up!

 

This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!


That is why the right kind of exposure is important both on a nation platform and as a music platform. They go hand in hand. England had achieved this well in my eyes. :)
 
Agreed.
 
Thank you!
 
And I attribute a lot of that to things like Melody Maker, that at least had a massive concert list/adverts ... in America, there was no such thing, and the music was separated ... and Rolling Stone gave up music for the fame and the stars. Not perfect ... but way better!
 
30 years later, I would say a board like this is on the foreground of it all!
 
Trust me ... it was fun reading that Tangerine Dream was "washing machine music" ... and that writer, obviously, had too much wax and dope in his ears, because he did not even know the difference between a washing machine and something that was considered music!
 
I think the publications in London were a bit more respectful ... comparatively speaking ... but the US was at least 3 or 4 different countries and what NY liked the folks in SF didn't and vice versa ... whereas London was wayyyyyyyyyy more centralized ... which made it easier to sell a concert ... Nektar had to fill up 4 or 5 different countries in America ... only one in London!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 08:08
Originally posted by Argonaught

Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 



Well, considering jazz-rock fusion was just beginning (in USA) when symphonic was starting, I'm not sure of the connection there.  Symphonic was quite mature when jazz-rock fusion exploded.  I could be wrong of course, as they do seem to have developed at the same time and I wasn't there so can't really say just how much cross fertilization there was (and there is no denying the jazz elements in the first Crimson album, which may or may not be the first symph rock album).  Jazz was certainly around long before prog rock in general, but it seems like jazz rock really came into its own AFTER symphonic prog was well established.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 09:07
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
Dean ... that poll applies to THIS BOARD ... whose fans and folks are much more educated about this than otherwise, which would lend a very slanted eye to that poll.
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
and you said " ... and this has happened here on this board! " yet the poll says it's not. And now you say it's not too. Confused


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Post Options Post Options   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 10:14
Originally posted by Argonaught

Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 

I'd say it was more to do with Jazz in general than just Jazz Rock/Fusion, which was sort of happening similtaniously with prog, as well as classical music.
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Post Options Post Options   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 17:33
Originally posted by infandous


Originally posted by Argonaught


Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them WinkNow, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).


I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 
Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 
 
Well, considering jazz-rock fusion was just beginning (in USA) when symphonic was starting, I'm not sure of the connection there.  Symphonic was quite mature when jazz-rock fusion exploded.  I could be wrong of course, as they do seem to have developed at the same time and I wasn't there so can't really say just how much cross fertilization there was (and there is no denying the jazz elements in the first Crimson album, which may or may not be the first symph rock album).  Jazz was certainly around long before prog rock in general, but it seems like jazz rock really came into its own AFTER symphonic prog was well established.

Frank Zappa's Hot Rats, one of the pioneer albums of jazz-rock fusion, came out in 1969, so it was coming out at the same time, not after.

I myself am from the US and I'm more than happy to declare that the history of Symphonic Prog was decidedly in the UK. This history will always be relevant even if things skew differently in contemporary times. I hasten to point out that Frank Zappa, though not of the Symphonic Prog genre (even though he worked with symphonies, including the London Symphony Orchestra), was very well known and very influential. True we're only talking about Symphonic Prog from the start of this thread, but some of the discussion could give an impression that there was nothing happening here in the US with respect to Prog. There was, but it was a bit different.
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