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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 07:30
^ "EXTERMINATE" the Doctor.........
If Spock's Beard produce 'plastic unmelodic poo' I'll eat my organic unmelodic poo..........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 10:47
I got into prog in the late 80s, when I discovered Rush and Marillion - i.e., the then-current top players.  Since then, I have been following what was going on in prog at the time, but also discovered the classics.  The classics occupy a special place in my heart because they laid the foundations without which no prog could exist, and created some masterpieces which still stand out as achievements of lasting value, but the focus of my interest has always been on new progressive rock bands and their music.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 11:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by timbo timbo wrote:

I think to a large extent, it depends on when you started getting into prog.

As a teenager in the late seventies, I came to prog through Genesis, Yes etc. (admittedly slightly past their golden age, but soon picked up their back catalogues). I therefore have an emotional attachment to them that I don't have to modern prog.

While I have enjoyed discovering modern band like Big Big Train and Moon Safari, I don't have the same connection with them. I can enjoy listening to them and appreciate the music, but it doesn't "grab me" like the 70s bands I grew up with.

Probably younger listeners will have the same experience - what they got into as teenagers will have the emotional connection that earlier/later bands don't have. Not to say one is better or worse than the other, it's just the bond isn't quite there.

Good point.  I'm definitely a classic prog guy...perhaps because that was the music I grew up on?  Maybe?  I don't know and I really don't care.  I have very few "modern prog" bands in my collection but not because I turn my nose up at anything released after September 24, 1974  LOL  It's simply a function that the sound I enjoy the most is rooted in classic prog so when a band like Anglagard showed up with mellotrons, analog gear, and a writing style that explored the classic prog vocabulary at the forefront, it spoke to me in a way that modern prog bands with digital instruments never did.  I have tried out some modern prog that my PA brothers and sisters rave about on youtube - but it get's a very lukewarm "it's good" reception and nothing like the obsessive insanity that I have for classic prog (or more recent bands that worship/emulate that era).  

So while it's not a prejudice against modern prog, probability theory tells me I'm better served spending my precious time exploring the classic prog goldmine.  I get way more excited about the prospect of hearing an unknown French prog band from '75 for the first time than I ever get about a pending 2013 release Wink
Have you tried the band Astra?  Not sure if they would appeal to you or not, but I believe that they use all authentic old equipment and recording technologies. 

Thanks much for the tip...I read your review of "The Weirding" yesterday and was intrigued...I'm giving the album a spin or two now - TGFYoutube Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 12:31
Love this post and love that people can love their modern prog bands.

I really want to hear modern prog that is both innovative, harmonically tonal with modal experimentation,
and spiritually "normative" -- in the way Yes, ELP and others are.   It seems you either get one or the
other with modern prog: kind of dark, bordering on the edge of obvious drug culture music, or more
mainstream musically but having good messages. I bought Sleepytime Gorilla Museum
when I think their 2nd CD came out, but not really into that school much anymore.  I liked a lot
of 5UU material but not their more experimental stuff.  I think they're the best when they sound most
like a Yes variation  =)   Best bands I've heard recently were Real Estate and Tame Impala. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 15:25
My own position on this is rather complex, and I wager that right now I'm too exhausted to really explain it. Stay tuned.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 15:33
I love much more of the old than the new. But that doesn't mean I don't love some of the new. Some of it is just as mind-blowing as the stuff I grew up on. For example, give me Transatlantic or Neal Morse any time, any day. Their music is every bit as rich, complex, virtuosic and melodic as anything written 40 years ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 15:45
The "modern" bands I like? They are either even further removed from the classic '60s/'70s prog rock bands than Marillion, DT and their ilk probably being more avantgarde than prog. (e. g. The Boredoms) Or they're very overtly retro. (e. g. Causa Sui)

Pretty weird actually.


Edited by Toaster Mantis - October 18 2013 at 15:54
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 15:47
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by timbo timbo wrote:

I think to a large extent, it depends on when you started getting into prog.

As a teenager in the late seventies, I came to prog through Genesis, Yes etc. (admittedly slightly past their golden age, but soon picked up their back catalogues). I therefore have an emotional attachment to them that I don't have to modern prog.

While I have enjoyed discovering modern band like Big Big Train and Moon Safari, I don't have the same connection with them. I can enjoy listening to them and appreciate the music, but it doesn't "grab me" like the 70s bands I grew up with.

Probably younger listeners will have the same experience - what they got into as teenagers will have the emotional connection that earlier/later bands don't have. Not to say one is better or worse than the other, it's just the bond isn't quite there.

Good point.  I'm definitely a classic prog guy...perhaps because that was the music I grew up on?  Maybe?  I don't know and I really don't care.  I have very few "modern prog" bands in my collection but not because I turn my nose up at anything released after September 24, 1974  LOL  It's simply a function that the sound I enjoy the most is rooted in classic prog so when a band like Anglagard showed up with mellotrons, analog gear, and a writing style that explored the classic prog vocabulary at the forefront, it spoke to me in a way that modern prog bands with digital instruments never did.  I have tried out some modern prog that my PA brothers and sisters rave about on youtube - but it get's a very lukewarm "it's good" reception and nothing like the obsessive insanity that I have for classic prog (or more recent bands that worship/emulate that era).  

So while it's not a prejudice against modern prog, probability theory tells me I'm better served spending my precious time exploring the classic prog goldmine.  I get way more excited about the prospect of hearing an unknown French prog band from '75 for the first time than I ever get about a pending 2013 release Wink
Have you tried the band Astra?  Not sure if they would appeal to you or not, but I believe that they use all authentic old equipment and recording technologies. 

Thanks much for the tip...I read your review of "The Weirding" yesterday and was intrigued...I'm giving the album a spin or two now - TGFYoutube Wink
Let us know what you think.  I am curious to hear your thoughts on them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 17:24
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:


Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Modern prog lacks melody, character and authenticity.  

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.


He trolls and says the same thing every chance he can get.


If it was quality I'd be rating it. It's plastic unmelodic poo
 
 
Well.....at least you are consistent about your lack of knowledge regarding progressive rock.
LOL
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 18:57
spocks beard are terrible lol
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:00
While I think it's kind of silly for everyone to be attacking Dr Prog for his opinion (aren't we all opinionated buggers when it comes to our beloved prog?) to write off everything "modern" (post 1989 as per the OP's definition in this thread) seems like a crazy way to limit yourself from discovering some great music.  If I closed up shop in 1989 I'd never have discovered Devil Doll, Thinking Plague, Primus, Asgard, Anglagard, Anekdoten, Landberk, Echolyn, Spock's Beard...I'll admit I don't run into much prog from the past 10 years that blows me away, but you gotta keep your ears open!  2013 is an incredible time to be a prog fan, not only do we have the PA database to explore...but just about any obscure prog album you might want to check out is available on youtube.  When I was getting into prog, you looked at the album cover, checked out the equipment list for the keyboard player hoping to find a mellotron or a Moog, looked if there were any songs longer than 7 minutes, plunked down your $$$ and rolled the dice.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:12
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

While I think it's kind of silly for everyone to be attacking Dr Prog for his opinion 

No it's silly because he's a troll trying to provoke a reaction, which is what he got.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:20
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

While I think it's kind of silly for everyone to be attacking Dr Prog for his opinion 

No it's silly because he's a troll trying to provoke a reaction, which is what he got.
 
Well I honestly hardly like music post 1983. So I'm not lying lol
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:23
Speaking of "modern prog'......is there a cut off date for it to be 'modern'? When did modern prog actually begin?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:34
Originally posted by Neo-Romantic Neo-Romantic wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Modern prog lacks melody, character and authenticity.

Dude, you miss out on so much amazing progressive music by outright dismissing modern stuff altogether.

So many inventive and exciting bands working in a variety of progressive genres to discover!

Don't simply hang on to a few albums from a small period of time and miss everything else.


I couldn't agree more. Dismissing 21st century Prog is a big no no....somebody operate on Dr. Prog!!

Ageism in the prog community is the very antithesis of what prog represents. The word "prog" should imply "progress". How can music move forward if we keep looking backward as though we've already left behind our potential to create new masterpieces? That, my friends, is regressive, not progressive.

Don't throw away the classics by any means, but don't put them on an inflated pedestal. You miss out on the amazing things going on in today's music scene. And there is some truly amazing stuff going on today. Some of it better than the classic stuff by miles in my opinion.

After stating that observation that I hope was communicated as a humble thought, I'm going to start a fight by interjecting my opinion of such examples, because that's the proper social convention for posting on the internet. The new Haken album, Riverside's last two, the new Anglagard album, and Discipline's most recent album are examples that have come out within the past 5 years that I like better than the ENTIRE YES DISCOGRAPHY. There, I said it. Not trolling either. And I'm not sorry. Commence bashing Tongue

 
There's no such thing as music moving forward. It's the most silly thing I've ever heard Cool. How is inventing a new style of music moving forward?  You listen to an old prog song and many of them can be listened so many times and are still enjoyable to listen to. It's all about the composition. That's why it is called progressive rock. The songs keep going. New wave prog is on the completely wrong tangent. They can barely write a melody, they are influenced by so many wrong bands and they have completely lost the concept of what progressive rock is really about  Big smile
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 19:41
If you barely listen to music after 1983 exactly how do you know this?

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

 
If it was quality I'd be rating it. It's plastic unmelodic poo

This is hardly the stuff of serious debate


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - October 18 2013 at 19:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 20:53
Actually, Dr. Prog is right at one point. Modern prog is less melodic in general than the old. I think that is because the old prog was more 'romantic'; e.g. space rock as subgenre wasn't dark as it is today, it was an 'optimistic'' vision of the space; I prefer today's dark version because I'm not convinced that aliens are good-humored guys who enjoy their flying teapots, lol.
Furthermore, the taste of the today's audience is also changed with the times, what results that modern prog, if it is "too melodic", it will not pass the gate in many cases; e.g. pretty melodic U.S. band 41Point9 was rejected by both PA' Symphonic and Crossover Team http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80850&PN=2
 
 
 
 
I presumed that they were rejected because of "too melodic"; I can't see another reason because there is no way that the 41Point9 is not 100% prog.
 
Simply like that, the prog audience is changed. Some years ago, I went in the newly open Virgin record store in Glyfada, Greece, and asked quite a young dealer to see if they have some prog; the boy asked me "is it aggressive?". Believe it or not. Hidding suprise, I said yes, and he instructed me on the shelf with prog metal CDs.
 
However, it's not true that in modern prog have not a lot of melodic stuff (btw when I say 'modern prog' that means the contemporary prog made in this decade), nor that modern prog is worse then the old because it is less melodic in general. Modern prog is magnificent especially in its diversity with all the sub-genres and the styles that did not existed back then, or were far worst than today e.g. heavy prog.
Also, its not true that modern prog is to sound 'plastic'. And finally, because of modern technology and (or) whatever, now is less crap then in late 60s - early 70s.


Edited by Svetonio - October 18 2013 at 21:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 21:13
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Neo-Romantic Neo-Romantic wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Modern prog lacks melody, character and authenticity.

Dude, you miss out on so much amazing progressive music by outright dismissing modern stuff altogether.

So many inventive and exciting bands working in a variety of progressive genres to discover!

Don't simply hang on to a few albums from a small period of time and miss everything else.


I couldn't agree more. Dismissing 21st century Prog is a big no no....somebody operate on Dr. Prog!!

Ageism in the prog community is the very antithesis of what prog represents. The word "prog" should imply "progress". How can music move forward if we keep looking backward as though we've already left behind our potential to create new masterpieces? That, my friends, is regressive, not progressive.

Don't throw away the classics by any means, but don't put them on an inflated pedestal. You miss out on the amazing things going on in today's music scene. And there is some truly amazing stuff going on today. Some of it better than the classic stuff by miles in my opinion.

After stating that observation that I hope was communicated as a humble thought, I'm going to start a fight by interjecting my opinion of such examples, because that's the proper social convention for posting on the internet. The new Haken album, Riverside's last two, the new Anglagard album, and Discipline's most recent album are examples that have come out within the past 5 years that I like better than the ENTIRE YES DISCOGRAPHY. There, I said it. Not trolling either. And I'm not sorry. Commence bashing Tongue

 
There's no such thing as music moving forward. It's the most silly thing I've ever heard Cool. How is inventing a new style of music moving forward?  You listen to an old prog song and many of them can be listened so many times and are still enjoyable to listen to. It's all about the composition. That's why it is called progressive rock. The songs keep going. New wave prog is on the completely wrong tangent. They can barely write a melody, they are influenced by so many wrong bands and they have completely lost the concept of what progressive rock is really about  Big smile

I'm honestly not trying to argue by saying this, but I really don't understand what you're trying to communicate. Can you clarify please? Again, I mean no confrontation, but I'm not seeing the logic behind the earlier part of your statement. As someone who's nearing the completion of a master's degree in classical composition and has taken many History of Western Music classes, I can testify that the outgrowth of new musical innovations from one stylistic period to another (renaissance to baroque to classic to romantic to 20th century) was motivated by the desire to expound upon what had already been done to create a new musical idiom that was unique and served as a benchmark in its natural evolution. Hence, moving forward. Ever expanding in a forward direction and fueled by the knowledge of where music has been already and a desire to transcend the mold of a style that was beginning to overstay its welcome.

I never said don't listen to and enjoy the classics. My top 3 albums (Red, Godbluff, and Lamb) each came out in the mid-70s. And I still love Relayer and think it's a bona fide masterpiece. We can enjoy these works throughout our lives because the composition of each work was truly amazing and meant something to us. I agree with your point there. But the modern generation hasn't lost that. In fact, because so many of them were influenced by the progressive giants of the past, it's only fair to say these musicians are the next steps in their legacy. And there's no reason why they can't be every bit as talented, if not more so, than the giants of yesteryear.

As far as the melody comment, that's just a hasty generalization, possibly ill-informed or tainted by A) a bad, narrow sample pool; B) personal bias affecting one's willingness to hear and appreciate the melodies that actually are there; or C) Both. Because I've actually heard discernible, well-developed, emotionally gratifying melodies in many modern works, I know I'm not wrong in saying they are, in fact, there. I can recommend you some good examples if you'd be interested in hearing something both new and amazing.

But of course, if you're just trolling, then you picked a good manner in which to get under a lot of people's skin it would seem, and for that, I'm actually quite impressed. I just don't understand jokes a lot of the time, so I honestly can't tell.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 21:19
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Actually, Dr. Prog is right at one point. Modern prog is less melodic in general than the old. I think that is because the old prog was more 'romantic'; e.g. space rock as subgenre wasn't dark as it is today, it was an 'optimistic'' vision of the space; I prefer today's dark version because I'm not convinced that aliens are good-humored guys who enjoy their flying teapots, lol.
Furthermore, the observation of the today's audience is also changed with the times, what results that modern prog, if it is "too melodic", it will not pass the gate in many cases; e.g. pretty melodic U.S. band 41Point9 was rejected by both PA' Symphonic and Crossover Team [COLOR=#0066cc">http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80850&PN=2[/COLOR">
 


 


 


 

I presumed that they were rejected because of "too melodic"; I can't see another reason because there is no way that the 41Point9 is not 100% prog.

 

Simply like that, the prog audience is changed. Some years ago, I went in the newly open Virgin record store in Glyfada, Greece, and asked quite a young dealer to see if they have some prog; the boy asked me "is it aggressive?". Believe or not. Hidding suprise, I said yes, and he instructed me on the shelf with prog metal CDs.

 

However, it's not true that in modern prog have not a lot of melodic stuff (btw when I said 'modern prog' I mean contemporary prog made in this decade), nor that modern prog is worse then the old because it is less melodic in general. Modern prog is magnificent especially in its diversity with all the sub-genres and the styles that did not existed back then, or were far worst than today e.g. heavy prog.

Also, its not true that modern prog is to sound 'plastic'.


Sounds like a prog idol competition lol. Music will never go anywhere with these judges in charge. I don't think bands know how to produce melody like they used to. There's only so much you can do with a pattern. I reckon the worst thing to happen to music was early 80s metal.
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 21:43
There's one stumbling block for me in some of the modern prog I have listened to.   I don't generally find it very catchy or memorable.  It's as if I have to listen several times just to start 'learning' the composition and then maybe see if I like it.  There is nothing right or wrong about such an approach but it doesn't work for me personally.  I get into some classical and jazz music more easily than stuff like Deluge Grandeur.   I have listened to not only the more accessible 70s prog rock bands like Yes or Genesis but also those in the Zeuhl/ later Canterbury like Magma or National Health and I don't face this problem generally speaking in 70s prog.  Of course, it's not a fair comparison because all these are bands with relatively lasting appeal (which is the reason they are still reviewed and discussed on websites like these) whereas I listen to new prog as it comes.  But when modern prog rock bands do try to be catchy (mainly prog metal), it seems to be more in a kind of generic/cliched way that reminds me of all the cheesy pop and glam-metal music of 80s/90s that I am not er, exactly dying to hear more of.  I have noticed that a lot of people who say they like modern prog more than classic prog mention VDGG as one of their favourite classic prog rock bands.  I do find VDGG rather unmemorable, however engrossing I might find them while their music plays, so maybe this lack of memorability is a plus from a certain point of view where any music that immediately "grabs the listener by the collar" has got to be pop/commercial music and automatically bad ( I remember that Henry Plainview used to dislike catchy music).  I wonder if such kind of thinking dictates the compositional choices of some of these new prog rock bands too. 

Building a little more on that point, I search for a motif in any track of music I listen to.  If the point is to listen to the arrangements rather than the motif (because the motif by itself lacks memorability), it's not for me.  Again, it's not for me to say it's right or wrong, but about my preferences.  

EDIT:  For me, catchiness itself flows from memorable motifs rather than accessible arrangements.  Just added that because people might wonder how exactly I find a band like Magma memorable and then say there's some modern prog that I don't find memorable. LOL


Edited by rogerthat - October 18 2013 at 23:03
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