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Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought.
    Posted: May 23 2025 at 22:33
I’ve been on a Sun Ra listening kick. Quite the fantastic oddball.
Short interview
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2025 at 22:49
I love Sun Ra. One of the wildest, weirdest artists ever to record. Have you seen the film "Space Is The Place"? It's as tripped out as his music.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2025 at 23:04
I've never doubted Sun Ra's progressiveness. Everchanging from the mid-fifties well into the 1980's. I'm just happy he decided to leave Saturn and that out of all the planets in the universe, he traveled to Earth and formed The Arkestra here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Syzygy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 03:10
Quite a few RIO/Avant musicians are Sun Ra fans; Chris Cutler issued Ra albums on Recommended Records, Daevid Allen mentioned him as an influence and so did members of Guapo.

A good starting point for prog fans could be Strange Celestial Road from the late 70s, which has more of a fusion feel, as does Space is the Place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 05:20
I was sure he was on PA...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 08:36
There were a lot of old artists who strayed away from the norms and created new and different styles of music that were hard to pin down in “genres”.    Genres are useful for sure, especially the eclectic prog, or experimental genre, for many of these outsider musicians who basically did their own thing and made it work.   I depend on genre descriptions to get me in the ballpark. I think Sun Ra has been accepted by Prog rockers since the 70s. I remember going into a record store in Pasadena in the 70s run by a group of hippies. Sun Ra was their music god lol. All you ever heard playing in their shop were things you were unfamiliar with. I’d ask, “what the hell is that, it’s awesome?   And they would rattle off some names I’d never ever heard of. I’d usually walk out with a record or two just after first hearing it in the store. Those guys got me into a lot of prog. Including Faust, Can, Amon duul, even Hawkwind. Everyone at school was listening to zeppelin or Alice cooper, Jethro Tull… which is good as well. My musical tastes were way out there. Still are.

Edited by Valdez - May 25 2025 at 08:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yam yam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 08:41
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I was sure he was on PA...
There have been several discussions about whether or not he belongs here, including three formal suggestions in July 2007, December 2010 and shortly afterwards again in January 2011. There was also a quite recent discussion in May 2024, which was started by an old friend of the site (lol!) who appears to have dropped by today again under a different pseudonym simply to post something in this one!

Sun Ra certainly divides opinion here, and was added to AwesomeProg, along with just a few albums, by Mike about two years ago, though the tag on there is '1978-2024: Non-Prog'.

There's a very comprehensive page for him on JMA anyway, if anyone wants to learn more about him and investigate his extensive discography.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 09:35
I talked to the JRF team many year ago about Sun Ra as I was keen to see it at least seriously considered, especially after hearing Languidity. This was some time after Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock were added and I was enthralled by many jazz artists who have added electric elements. Donald Byrd for Electric Byrd was one of the ones I was keenest on them seriously considering, but thy had their plan for additions.



In PA or not, Sun Ra is very obviously progressive even if not deemed Prog (which is common shorthand for progressive rock) or if included to Jazz-Rock/Fusion. I think of him as one of (among) the most progressive artists of the 20th century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 14:09
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


...
In PA or not, Sun Ra is very obviously progressive even if not deemed Prog (which is common shorthand for progressive rock) or if included to Jazz-Rock/Fusion. I think of him as one of (among) the most progressive artists of the 20th century.


Hi,
He is in the Jazz Music Archives, where there are some discussions on his work and also on the band continuing after him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 19:31
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I talked to the JRF team many year ago about Sun Ra as I was keen to see it at least seriously considered, especially after hearing Languidity. This was some time after Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock were added and I was enthralled by many jazz artists who have added electric elements. Donald Byrd for Electric Byrd was one of the ones I was keenest on them seriously considering, but thy had their plan for additions.



In PA or not, Sun Ra is very obviously progressive even if not deemed Prog (which is common shorthand for progressive rock) or if included to Jazz-Rock/Fusion. I think of him as one of (among) the most progressive artists of the 20th century.


This topic of adding Sun Ra never seems to die down in these parts. As a member of the JF team i am opposed to his inclusion.

Why? Because ALL jazz is progressive but not all jazz is rock! Simple as that.

Jazz Fusion is not synonymous with jazz rock fusion. There are many forms of fusion that have nothing to do with rock. This site is reserved for jazz ROCK fusion. Sure there some that snuck through but i wouldn't voted for em.

I speak with authority on this because Sun Ra is one of my favorite artists of all time. I have been listening for a long time and these are all the albums i currently have in my collection. I'm missing quite a few but dude was prolific AF.

STUDIO
Jazz By Sun Ra [Sun Song] (1957)
Super-Sonic Jazz (1957)
Jazz In Silhouette (1959)
The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra (1962)
When Sun Comes Out (1963)
Angels And Demons At Play (1965)
Art Forms of Dimensions Tomorrow(1965)
Fate In A Pleasant Mood (1965)
Secrets Of The Sun (1965)
The Heliocentric Worlds Of Sun Ra Vol 1 (1965)
The Heliocentric Worlds Of Sun Ra Vol 2 (1966)
Rocket Number Nine [Interstellar Low Ways] (1966)
The Lady With the Golden Stockings [The Nubians of Plutonia] (1966)
The Magic City (1966)
Visits Planet Earth (1966)
When Angels Speak of Love (1966)
Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy (1967)
Strange Strings (1967)
We Travel The Spaceways (1967)
A Black Mass (1968)
Monorails and Satellites (1968)
Sound Of Joy (1968)
Atlantis (1969)
Continuation (1969)
Holiday for Soul Dance (1970)
My Brother the Wind (1970)
Sound Sun Pleasure!! (1970)
The Wind Speaks [My Brother The Wind Vol 2] (1970)
The Solar-Myth Approach Volume 1 (1971) as Strange Worlds
The Solar-Myth Approach Volume 2 (1971) as Strange Worlds
Imamu Baraka and the Sun Ra Myth-Science Arkestra "The Night of the Purple Moon" (1972)
Bad And Beautiful (1972)
Discipline 27-II (1973)
Space Is The Place (1973)
Cosmos (1976)
Lanquidity (1978)
Sleeping Beauty (1979)
On Jupiter (1979)
Strange Celestial Road (1980)
Somewhere Else (1993)
Thunder Of The Gods (2017 archival)

LIVE
It's After the End of the World: Live at the Donaueschingen and Berlin Festivals (1970)
Disco 3000 (1978)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 20:08
^ it was something I discussed with team members in maybe 2009 when I was really getting into lots of jazz. I would not expect Sun Ra to be added, and know his music much more than then. I don't really care if he's in PA or not, actually, but I think he is a particularly progressive artist from my perspective. I don't know that all jazz is progressive, depends what you mean by progressive I guess (progressive jazz is a thing), but some artists I would think have had a more progressive approach and effect on music. Being progressive (adjective) in some ways does not make one Prog (as genre) nor fit for the site, of course.

Edited by Logan - May 25 2025 at 20:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 20:41
Like Logan, I don’t care if he’s included in PA or not honestly. It would be kind of like putting Miles or Dolphy in… I get it. But Sun Ra is a different kind of cat to be sure. I find “straight” jazz pretty tedious . I remember checking out most of the Pacific Jazz quartet LPs years ago (baker, koonits, mulligan etc.). What a drag those are. Parker Coltrane Miles… a bit more interesting. Eric Dolphy hit the spot for me. Herbie Hancock was Prog (Headhunters). For the most part jazz isn’t my thing.

Side note… I heard Morphines “like swimming” album years ago, and thought, THIS is modern Jazz/rock that really pushes prog buttons! with just a cocktail drummer, a 2 string bass, and a brilliant sax. Morphine was pretty innovative and still stayed inside acceptable norms.   Actually made me look into some more recent jazz infused rock that goes places.   I’m just rambling, and I get silly pups points. I suppose the listener will decide what’s progressive in his mind. It’s a personal thing and that’s ok .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 20:47
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ it was something I discussed with team members in maybe 2009 when I was really getting into lots of jazz. I would not expect Sun Ra to be added, and know his music much more than then. I don't really care if he's in PA or not, actually, but I think he is a particularly progressive artist from my perspective. I don't know that all jazz is progressive, depends what you mean by progressive I guess (progressive jazz is a thing), but some artists I would think have had a more progressive approach and effect on music. Being progressive (adjective) in some ways does not make one Prog (as genre) nor fit for the site, of course.


^ i view the term "progressive" as a relativity descriptor. By claiming all jazz is progressive i mean in comparison to standard rock, folk, country, rockabilly and pretty much all the other genres that existed in the 21st century up to the 60s. Same goes for Western classical.

Progressive in terms of rock is what this site was designed for and is also a relatively thing comparing more complex rock to simpler antecedents and more standard classic styles that eschew complexities.

The truncated "prog" of course refers to progressive rock.

Progressive jazz is not really a term i've encountered with the terms avant-garde jazz covering the more experimental realms and other terms used to cover cross-pollination efforts such as jazz fusion, jazz rock, third stream etc

To my ears Sun Ra just didn't delve into the rock universe. He was more of a amalgamater of African traditional music, jazz and classical as well as other non-rock genres.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 21:06
^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff.

Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music."

And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it.


Edited by Logan - May 25 2025 at 21:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 22:32
While I don't own any Sun Ra CD's, I did have the pleasure of seeing him live in Boston decades ago. Probably 1975-76 at the now defunct Modern Theater. Part of my musical education at college courtesy of the newspaper music staff. The same folks that introduced me to Firesign Theater, Henry Cow, the Hatfields and jazz like Cecil Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago.

I didn't know much about him. It was wild, all over the place. Ultimately mind-blowing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 22:43
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff.

Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music."

And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it.


I've heard the term but it's not much used that i can find. It's not particularly useful for jazz at least not for me mostly because more specific terms like free jazz, avant-garde jazz, experimental jazz etc are more specific. I guess experimental and outside the box thinking means progressive in many ways. It's just that almost all styles of jazz utilize complex chord progressions, rhythms, time signatures etc except for the pop crossover stuff like Kenny G and the like.

The term progressive county exists as does just about progressive everything! Ironically the term has a different meaning depending which genre it's tagged to at least in terms of how the music is extended beyond the norm.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 23:03
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


...
Progressive jazz is not really a term i've encountered with the terms avant-garde jazz covering the more experimental realms and other terms used to cover cross-pollination efforts such as jazz fusion, jazz rock, third stream etc
...

HI,

I have been listening for several months to a lot of jazz and specially the listings on JMA, and I kinda think that a lot of it is not exactly progressive, and sometimes, it is downright conventional as if a different sax player was going to make the whole thing more progressive ... and I'm not sure it does at all ... but there are some things in the various different threads that are really special and neat, but saying they are "progressive" might be somewhat misplaced, and not quite a good description of the music at all.

It makes sense in rock music, in a way, though I think that as time goes by so many things are getting watered down and washed out of its color, and soon it will start sounding like AI stuff anyway ... it kinda is already happening when so many bands are asking for inclusion and they sound like a lot of other bands, which is not exactly what "progressive" was designed for, as far as I can tell ... I don't think PA is looking for bands doing pictures of tomatoes or onions in the hallway on the way to the kitchen!! (so to speak) ... and in this sense the choosing might get rougher and tougher, I suppose.

I would agree that SUN RA is more of a part of JMA than it would be a part of PA ... and maybe we should make sure we guide/send folks over there instead of trying to get them included here ... which is kinda sad, and probably a misrepresentation of what his music is really about ... I was wondering what SUN RA himself would say ... he probably would say he doesn't do jazz or rock ... he does his music! And while it fits JMA well, it is not the right place for him on PA.



Edited by moshkito - May 25 2025 at 23:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 23:19
Well I intended this to be a casual conversation about the music and the man’s simple philosophy in the short vid clip. I didn’t mean to start genre wars. All good. We all seem to enjoy his strange take on music, at least we agree. I hadn’t realized such a large discography and I’ll be exploring more of it in the future. I’m just pleased that music is capable of changing and morphing into new terrain even though it appears to get “stuck” at times. I feel that progressive Rock is somewhat stuck in these times. But we know breakthroughs happen regularly, historically. Waiting for the next big thing I suppose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2025 at 23:44
^ That debate is more likely to happen if you put such a topic in the Prog music lounge.

By the way, it's not that big a deal to me, and I moved this to General Music Discussions, but here is the Creating new threads in the forum topic under Site Rules and Guidelines.

https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13082

Quote This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.
N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music.


Since posting it in the Prog forum is expected to directly relate to Prog music (i.e. Progressive Rock) it can be more likely to be expected to lead to a debate on the Prog credentials. Such debates have been very common at PA and might well have happened wherever you posted it (I have thought of such debates as part of this forum's lifeblood).

Edited by Logan - May 25 2025 at 23:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2025 at 01:53
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff.

Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music."

And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it.


I've heard the term but it's not much used that i can find. It's not particularly useful for jazz at least not for me mostly because more specific terms like free jazz, avant-garde jazz, experimental jazz etc are more specific. I guess experimental and outside the box thinking means progressive in many ways. It's just that almost all styles of jazz utilize complex chord progressions, rhythms, time signatures etc except for the pop crossover stuff like Kenny G and the like.

The term progressive county exists as does just about progressive everything! Ironically the term has a different meaning depending which genre it's tagged to at least in terms of how the music is extended beyond the norm.



Progressive Jazz is a term I've heard for 20 years and quite a few Belgian jazz ats can qualify.
JMA has a ¨rogressive Big Band genre, BTW, in which Duke & Gill Evans (and Sun Ra) should be.

BTW, I've always found that putting Sun Ra in R (as opposed to S) in JMA was a bit counter-intuitive, as Hermann Poole Blount's artiste name was not made of a first and surname (just like Max Webster or Jethro Tull).
But then again the Belgian jazz great Philipp Catherine is catalogued as British, simply because he was born in London during WW2 (his parents were in the resistance, I believe and had fled to continue the war there).



However, the AI definition would hint that all forms of Bop jazz (Be, Hard or Post) would be "progressive". In a way it was, bacause the aesthetics of Bop were quite demanding and sort of aimed at voluntarily excluding more commercial/standard forms of jazz. Bop music was clearly for snobs (it repulsed plenty of the wider public), and that trait can relate to progheads (but then again, there are punk snobs, and C&W snobs as well).

Edited by Sean Trane - May 26 2025 at 01:54
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rather than un-sheath our sword
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