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SaltyJon 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 08 2008 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 28772 |
 Posted: December 17 2009 at 16:01 |
I still don't see why people do it at all...it seems to be one of the stupidest things ever, multiple accounts to rate something badly/well rather than one account with a review explaining their POV. Words can tell me MUCH more than ratings. |
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Sckxyss
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 05 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:49 |
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Nice work M@X.
Man, now all that effort they put into making new accounts every day has gone to waste  |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:24 |
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Thanks M@X!
I have a question: Have all ratings for those who created multiple accounts for those albums been deleted? In other words, if a person is found to have created more than one account, will the person be penalized by removing ratings from all of his/her accounts? |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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M@X
Forum & Site Admin Group
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster Joined: January 29 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4077 |
Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:48 |
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Done now
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Prog On !
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:33 |
I see that a lot of ratings have been removed from The Tangent's Down and Out page, but I don't see any gone from Magma's Emehntehtt-Re page. http://www.progarchives.com/album-reviews.asp?id=25584 Edited by Logan - December 16 2009 at 12:34 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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M@X
Forum & Site Admin Group
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster Joined: January 29 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4077 |
Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:16 |
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I've made a small cleanup of duplicate ratings. It should be more "accurate" now.
I have also improve the function to check for duplicate ratings. |
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Prog On !
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 15 2009 at 12:38 |
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Yep, and as Sckxyss poisnts out, these are by people who have only recently joined.
Continuing from last ones I noted from the E Re album ratings page (StevenHack being the the most recent of those I already had listed): Joined date: 12/13/2009 Has only rated E-Re. .................................................................................................................. Joined date: 12/14/2009  MAGMA Live/Hhaï (Köhntark)(rating only) MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London
| reviewOther Magma ratings a smokescreen perhaps? ......................................................................................................
lanzJoined date: 12/14/2009 OZRIC TENTACLES Strangeitude(rating only) OZRIC TENTACLES The Yumyum Tree(rating only) BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)DREAM THEATER Black Clouds & Silver Linings(rating only)BRIGHTEYE BRISON Believers & Deceivers(rating only)NEMO Barbares(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only).................................................................................................. Joined date: 12/14/2009 KAIPA Inget Nytt Under Solen (rating only) ROINE STOLT Wallstreet Voodoo(rating only)ROINE STOLT Fantasia(rating only)ROINE STOLT The Flower King (rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE FLOWER KINGS Stardust We Are(rating only)THE FLOWER KINGS Paradox Hotel(rating only)THE FLOWER KINGS Unfold The Future(rating only)THE FLOWER KINGS The Sum Of No Evil(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)PLANET X MoonBabies(rating only)PLANET X Quantum(rating only)A four this time for E-Re and five for Down and Out ............................................................................................... Joined date: 12/14/2009 BILL BRUFORD One of a Kind(rating only)WEATHER REPORT Black Market(rating only)STEVEN WILSON Insurgentes(rating only)DEREK SHERINIAN Planet X(rating only)DEREK SHERINIAN Inertia(rating only)DEREK SHERINIAN Molecular Heinosity(rating only)PANZERBALLETT Hart Genossen Von Abba Bis Zappa(rating only)DIABLO SWING ORCHESTRA Sing-Along Songs for the Damned & Delirious(rating only)PORCUPINE TREE The Sky Moves Sideways (rating only)PORCUPINE TREE The Incident(rating only)IL CASTELLO DI ATLANTE Capitolo 7 - Tra Le Antiche Mura(rating only)BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)REDEMPTION Snowfall on Judgment Day(rating only)PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI Stati Di Immaginazione(rating only)PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI Dracula Opera Rock(rating only)PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI L'isola di niente (rating only)PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI Per Un Amico(rating only)JETHRO TULL Thick As A Brick(rating only)EMERSON LAKE & PALMER Brain Salad Surgery(rating only)EMERSON LAKE & PALMER In the Hot Seat (rating only)EMERSON LAKE & PALMER Pictures at an Exhibition(rating only)MAGMA 1001° Centigrades(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)MAGMA Köhntarkösz(rating only)ELOY Ocean(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)FOCUS Moving Waves (rating only)TRANSATLANTIC SMPTe (The Roine Stolt Mixes)(rating only)CAMEL Mirage(rating only)YES Relayer(rating only)YES Close To The Edge(rating only)Like with spacefunk who joined and rated the albums on the same day, a four for E-Re and a five for Down and Out. All of the recent rating accounts save one that only rated Magma's (with two stars) have rated both albums and have rated Magma lower. Plus all joined since the 13th (and most accounts on the 14th). If rating E-Re a four, which is a very high rating, is to throw people off the scent, it's quite funny. |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Zitro
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 11 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1321 |
Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:30 |
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And what Logan is saying continues and Magma keeps falling down.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 17:53 |
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Considering that E-Re is is quite difficult to get and quite expensive, I am surprised by the number of Tangent fans who suddenly invested in a Zeuhl album despite the difference between styles, only to - what a surprise - confirm this difference by a low rating. Yes, it does look like manipulation. But if there are no multiple accounts of the same person, then nothing can be proved (if it actually is list manipulation).
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Zitro
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 11 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1321 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 17:52 |
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Why can't we just get rid of ratings without reviews? can't people just review the albums?
Yeah, Magma's rating keeps going down. It was 4.49 after my 5-star review and went down in a matter of hours, i guess because my rating might have put it 1st place again. The tangent's album sounds good tho, better and more mature than "Place in the Queue". |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 16:09 |
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As usual, I'm also concerned that such raters have not even listened to the album (talking about those mentioned who rated E-Re a two or three but haven't written a review for it) -- a review with rating has more of an effect on the ratings.
Edited by Logan - December 13 2009 at 16:11 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32581 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 15:54 |
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Ah. I see the nature of your concern.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 15:52 |
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I lost a long post again:
Some of it could possibly just be chalked up to differences in style, but the pattern is far too consistent/ far too repetitive to be coincidental. Those who are rating E-Re a five are not rating Down and Out, while those that are rating Down and Out a five are rating E-Re a two or a three. And it's happening again and again. Look through the lists, I've tried to be complete. Why are so many raters (or reviewers) who are rating Down and Out a five also rating E-Re at all, let alone giving similar ratings? They're different styles. I'm convinced of manipulation, and one stars are being avoided because those are more obvious and various one stars have been deleted for E-Re due to ratings abuse. I suspect multiple accounts by the same person or people. And possibly those Down and Out admirers are checking out E-Re because they're part of a downloading club. I don't imagine mnay of them would be buying E-Re. For me the pattern looking at the ratings is just so obvious (I've listed all of the ratings since Down and Out was released I think). Edited by Logan - December 13 2009 at 15:54 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32581 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 15:29 |
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How much of this do you think can be chalked up to different tastes in styles?
I mean, they are the top two albums of 2009 right now, and they are quite different bands, and yet the spotlight is on them despite the genre. Just thinking out loud here, I guess. I personally have not heard either album, but I am really interested. |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 15:24 |
He didn't rate both E-Re and Down and Out. I know inrainbows too and am not accusing him of manipulation. I was showing all the latest ratings for E-Re (since my last post on it) and the pattern for those that rate E-Re and Down and Out. As with inrainbows, those who rate Magma's five are not rating Down and Out, but as you can see from the long lists in my posts, it is incredibly commonplace for those who are rating Down and Out in Paris a five to also be rating E-Re a three or a two. Edited by Logan - December 13 2009 at 15:28 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32581 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 15:17 |
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I can vouch for inrainbows...this is person I've actually made contact with outside of PA.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 14:57 |
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I hope the IPs are being checked because I would suspect multi-nicking. It's obviously not random acts. And while each rating on Magma's album has little effect, cumulatively it has a significant enough effect (with the five star Tangent ratings and reviews from the same raters) to affect the placement (it is a tight "race"). It's a more subtle form of manipulation, but the pattern is still so clear. And couple that with those who rate Magma's album highly not rating The Tangent's at all.
Off course it's not uncommon for ratings manipulation in such cases. To think that just since I recently updated the list down to eder88 there are more of these ratings (all of these taken from the E-Re album page ratings):
inrainbows
(Mark K.)
-no review of The Tangent ............................................................................................................. MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)................................................................................................................ MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only).................................................................................................. TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)He did rate The Tangent's a five, but it was removed (was coming up as review but only with the rating-- perhaps he "commented out" material so text was hidden). Edited by Logan - December 13 2009 at 14:58 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Sckxyss
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 05 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: December 13 2009 at 11:10 |
I just noticed the same thing. Moreover, if you isolate the ones that gave The Tangent 5 and Magma 2-3 (there was a huge patch of 10-15 of these within the last week or so), you'll notice they all just joined within the last week or so, too - as if just to rate these specific albums and a couple miscellaneous others. This batch is just smart enough to avoid giving straight 1s and drawing attention.  |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: December 10 2009 at 03:01 |
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Interesting stuff Logan.
In view of the general avoidance of one star negative ratings, I would think the overall impact of all those is pretty negligible. The 10 times weighting of collab reviews and the 3 times of others should mean that popular albums average out just about right.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 38691 |
Posted: December 09 2009 at 14:29 |
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Just a note regarding E-Re, speaking as a fanboy: I've been following the ratings of both of the top two albums now for 2009 (I haven't heard The Tangent's latest) and notice, while I think the fanbases would be different on the whole so I would not expect that many who are big on The Tangent to be big on Magma (even if particular albums could appeal to people of each group) that recently the less than glowing raters for E-Re are giving The Tangent's latest a five (I guess both could appeal to retro prog fans), and I'm one of those who gave E-Re a five after much consternation (I quickly bumped it from a four to reflect on my enjoyment of the album, even though I'm torn between rating it a four or five, and no, my rating does not reflect on the race).
When a lower rating without review for The tangent's comes up, I can almost be sure that that person has highly rated The Tangent's newest.
I think the one stars will be avoided, though, since so many of those
who have been removed as clear ratings manipulation (not singling out
Tangent fans, as most of those happened before The Tangent's release).Have a look, and I'm not accusing people of abuse, but I find it interesting as both of the top albums are so close in the top spot race. I'm going from the latest E-Re ratings (ratings without review), and then checking that members review profile (and note that for each user I have not included all ratings, but it's interesting that so many of them have rated the same albums similarly beyond these two -- each block of ratings is taken from a review profile, except for Astryos -- the second to last E-Re rater at this time): THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
Astryos
(Michael K)
for E-Reand no review for The Tangent THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)MAGMA Christian Vander - "Wurdah Ïtah"(rating only)He did rate Wurdah Itah with a five, and I wouldn't suggest a smoke-screen. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No rating of The Tangent's MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No rating of The tangent's THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)Rated three of this years releases, and all quite favourably. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)Another 5 star rating for E-Re and none for The Tangent's THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No rating for The Tangent's MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London
| reviewChosen the various 2009 ones. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)Again, no The Tangent. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No The Tangent MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No The Tangent
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind
(rating only)
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second
(rating only)
RIVERSIDE Anno Domini High Definition
(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê
(rating only)No The Tangent MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)No Tangent review. PORCUPINE TREE The Incident(rating only)PHIDEAUX Number Seven(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)No Tangent review. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)No Tangent review. TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)NO tangent review. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No Tangent review MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No Tangent review from Igor (P-J) THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind
| reviewMAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second
| reviewEPIGNOSIS Still the Waters(rating only)5 stars for both E-Re and Down and Out, but low ratings for other very well-regarded by some releases for the year. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)And a five for an earlier Tangent release. MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No The Tangent THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)INDUKTI Idmen(rating only)A one for Down and Out AND E-Re, and a five for Idmen. THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)1-3 stars ratings for the year (though I know I'm missing this year's releases in various lists) MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)No Tangent or others from this year I seem to have come to the end of the list for Tangent ones. EDIT: And the latest ratings (without review) for E-Re since I posted the list above: MIRIODOR Avanti!(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Not As Good As The Book(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)BRIGHTEYE BRISON Believers & Deceivers(rating only)BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)THE TANGENT Not As Good As The Book(rating only)THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)GENTLE GIANT Free Hand (rating only)Note: I did this using the Magma page as a base (there are others who have rated both albums that I could check from reviews). And I have no problem with someone not giving E-Re a glowing review (I would expect various people who really like Magma to only give it a three). I do find it a bit odd that there are so many similar ratings (and that so many raters have rated much the same albums if using full lists as a guide --possibly some multi-nicking and members of the same outside PA community). I know that tmnay of these are threes, and that is a "good" rating. Edited by Logan - December 11 2009 at 19:56 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Sckxyss wrote: