Brexit

Blacksword wrote: lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals... ..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask ) With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out. We will learn the hard way. Eventually. Absolutely spot on regarding the flow of cheap labour. It is a policy that is having massive ramifications, all of them detrimental, on working standards and wages across the continent. This is, to me, the main reason why I cannot understand for the life of me the unequivocal backing of the European "project" by so-called socialists and social democrats. The answer, of course, if the project is to continue, is to genuinely harmonise incomes via minimum living standards across the piece. This should be to the highest level, but they will not do this, because of a mixture of corporate interests, and, of course, the fact that the economies are so vastly divergent, which shows the utter folly of the move towards a single currency in the first instance. I agree. The TTIP is not going to improve things either. Please read this.. EU Trade minister on the TTIP The EU project is a corporate project not a social project. It's sad that so many of us fell for it. It's aim is transparently to reduce living standards overall, and hand governance to corporations.

Thanks for sharing that article, Andy. Fascinating, and this from a newspaper which is just about as far away from a rabid anti-EU rag as it is possible to get, with the possible exception of the dear old Grauniad.

As I have said before in this, and other threads, we seem to be sleepwalking into the type of dystopian corporate nightmare which, not that long ago, was regarded as mere science fiction, and, should there be, or maybe when there is, a revolt against this, I really do fear the worst, and I say this as someone who is generally rather upbeat - glass half full, etc.

lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals... ..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask ) With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out. We will learn the hard way. Eventually. Absolutely spot on regarding the flow of cheap labour. It is a policy that is having massive ramifications, all of them detrimental, on working standards and wages across the continent. This is, to me, the main reason why I cannot understand for the life of me the unequivocal backing of the European "project" by so-called socialists and social democrats. The answer, of course, if the project is to continue, is to genuinely harmonise incomes via minimum living standards across the piece. This should be to the highest level, but they will not do this, because of a mixture of corporate interests, and, of course, the fact that the economies are so vastly divergent, which shows the utter folly of the move towards a single currency in the first instance.

I agree.

The TTIP is not going to improve things either.

Please read this..

EU Trade minister on the TTIP


The EU project is a corporate project not a social project. It's sad that so many of us fell for it. It's aim is transparently to reduce living standards overall, and hand governance to corporations.

It's not just on a peace-keeping PoV that Europe has been prolific...

Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals...

..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask )

With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out.

We will learn the hard way. Eventually.

Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.

Edited by Sean Trane - March 01 2016 at 03:32

someone_else wrote: chopper wrote: Blacksword wrote: I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know' I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side. I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going. Part of the information is easily available: Countries like Switzerland and Norway are doing fine without being part of the EU. Iceland has overcome a financial crisis some years ago without the EU. Fear of the unknown is a strong weapon in the hands of the IN brigade indeed, but a poor counsellor. When I try to visualize the road of the EU, I cannot get the cover of that 1977 Kansas album out of my head...

The IN mob say that Switzerland and Norway may as well be in the EU as they are bound to numerous trade deals shared by other member states anyway. Although they 'enjoy' the low trade tarifs etc, they don;t have a 'place at the table' and so don't get to vote on anything in the EU parliament.

Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.

someone_else wrote: chopper wrote: Blacksword wrote: I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know' I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side. I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going. Part of the information is easily available: Countries like Switzerland and Norway are doing fine without being part of the EU. Iceland has overcome a financial crisis some years ago without the EU.

Blacksword wrote: I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know'

I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side.

I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going.

Matthew _Gill wrote: The current systems seems to give people like Anjem Choudary room to thrive and potential economic repercussions aside leaving the EU will make it easier to fight such cancer.

Enabling loonies such as Choudary to roam and spread poison at will has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It has more to do with the attitude that anything criticising such nutters is akin to Islamophobia amongst the idiots responsible for running our country, and those who want to run the country. Those people will still be running the show whether we are in or out.

Sean Trane wrote: Sometimes, I'm really close to wishing England would leave (and we'd take Scotland after a second independance referendum, which will no doubt happen since the Scots are very-much Pro-Europe)... Good friggin' riddance to those Albionites Ever since England has been in the EC, they've done everything to stop Europe from functionning correctly, by always vetoing (One of Europe's weak point is that it needed unanimity, which was doable with the original 6, but at 28....) almost everything. I'm totally against the Cameron blackmail and the special deal that he extorted from Europe. They only want the advantages of Europe (which they systematically ignore to expose in public - to fit their hidden agenda), but none of the inconveniances (which are not nearly as many as Farage says). Is it any surprise that England is not part of the €-zone and Shengen-system?? Not at all, really!!! They're not interested in making Europe work, only creating havoc.  With a perfidious friend like The City, doing everything it can to drown the Euro (€) zone, who needs ennemies?  Just look how England is making it tough on everyone, and not caring about the nuisance they create to their direct neighbours... Calais and the so-called jungle: why do all these refugees and migrants want to cross the chunnel? Because of a few idiotic and huge gaps in their laws. Create obligatory ID cards, change the rules about asylum and non-expulsion rules and social help, and 99% of those refugees and migrants will suddendly lose all interest in the UK... Easy enough a solution, but the tories and their claim to medieval traditions won't budge. So it's their bloody mess out there in Calais!! And then they blame the rest of Europe for their own inadequaties. Amazing, uh?? Perfidious is more like it, really!!!!!  anyway, enough for tonight , but be warned I got plenty more!!

I don't really understand the Calais situation. They want to demolish the camp and give its inhabitants social housing. To do so I guess they'd be granting them full asylum, and if they were to be issued French passports they could all come to the UK legally anyway if they still wanted to... I don't understand what the problem is. I also don't understand why the refugees would turn down the opportunity of housing in favour of living in a filthy camp in the rain.

As for 'The City' Most of those banking cockroaches want the UK to stay in the EU. What does that say, either about the bankers or the EU?