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Cynic View Drop Down
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Art Rock - King Crimson
    Posted: October 22 2006 at 09:16
"

Art Rock

Art Rock definition


Not a sub-genre, as much as a category. Bands included in Art Rock may have very few things in common, other than the fact that they are all 100% Progressive Rock bands.  

The term Art Rock has evolved from being synonymous with Progressive Rock in the early 70's, to being considered the borderline between Progressive Rock and mainstream in the 90's. However, the term has changed again with the new century, and below are the characteristics of the bands that will be included in this category:

1.     100% Prog bands
2.     Bands that are beyond the limits of the sub-genre parameters, or
3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or                                                          
4.     Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5.     Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.


(The main difference with Prog-Related is that in this second category the bands included are not usually accepted as Prog bands, or are simply non Prog bands that have influenced or been influenced by the genre.)

Prog Archives accepts that this is a very generic category, but we believe it is necessary to avoid creating endless sub-genres for each eclectic band that appears.


 


Iván Melgar Morey - Perú"

 
 
 
 
Okay my question is why king crimson is added here...  It is because they have evolved throughout their career, correct?
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 09:25
King Crimson are one of the principal and quintessential examples for Art Rock, in my opinion. They've dedicated music, knowledge, sense, effort and spirit to many side of composition and of music exploration, however deep or however simple, however abstract or however concrete, over the entire years. Their meanins thus is the equivalent of many things and the intention of many directions. Being absolutely and fundamentally prog, they fit no more, no less that excelent in the Art Rock multitude of shapes, nuances and...et caetera.

(Robert Fripp himself is named various ShockedWink)
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 13:09
King Crimson are very hard to classify. Art Rock is a pretty inclusive category, and I'm happy with them being there. Where would you want them?
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Points: 823 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 14:22
I've always considered them an Art Rock band. It's rock music made for the artist by the artist.
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Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 15:03
King Crimson's music has moved across many sub-genres of prog making them impossible to pin down exactly as to what kind of music they play, so Art rock is the best place to put them.
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Points: 66006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 15:12
Art rock for KC is fine but I would have to say they are a *progressive* rock band, mainly because I don't find them particularly 'arty'-- they are a *rock* band with a capital R rather than the artists considered 'art rock' such as Eno, solo Fripp, etc. In a way, 'art' rock is too tame a phrase for them. They are HEAVY, baby, heavy.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:16
KC are "hard"-prog, art-rock refers to bands that are on the frontier between pop-rock and prog-rock, like Supertramp, Roxy Music, 10CC, Kate Bush, Manfred Mann's earthband... I don't see the connection between those bands and King Crimson Confused
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 1250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:18
I'll say again what I have allready said. If moving through many sub-genres is the case then Pink floyd should be no' 1 in this category. Moving from psychadelia (SFOS, Ummagumma) to Symphonic (AHM, WYWH, Animals) to prog related (The wall, TFC) and more they are more versatile than any band I know (maybe except JT but they have allways their unique sound).
I do'nt care where you put KC but you should be consistent with your definitions.
omri
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:18
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

art-rock refers to bands that are on the frontier between pop-rock and prog-rock


what?! Confused

perhaps Prog-Related is the entended subgenre for such a description.
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:19
At several spots in their career, they would have fit comfortably into several of the spots; the first album is an early Symphonic album (IMO).  The next line-up, while not quite fusion, was definately jazz-rock.  The Wetton-Cross lineup is perhaps the definitave art rock band. 

3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent

There you go.


Edited by rileydog22 - October 22 2006 at 16:20

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Points: 5296 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:19
"Art Rock" is now used when a band does not fit beneath any category entirely!

Crimson could be symphonic, avant-garde, prog metal, etc.

Definitions change with the time, people (and hopefully your socks, too).
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 17:00
I think most of us will agree on one thing though: Whatever it is, it's very good!
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 17:11
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

KC are "hard"-prog, art-rock refers to bands that are on the frontier between pop-rock and prog-rock, like Supertramp, Roxy Music, 10CC, Kate Bush, Manfred Mann's earthband... I don't see the connection between those bands and King Crimson Confused
 
Other bands in the vein of KC that belong to the "hard-prog" subgenre : VDGG and Anekdoten. A music dominated by a tortured atmosphere, you can see clearly that they have nothing to see with the cheerfullness of bands like BJH, 10CC, Supertramp or Roxy Music. A subgenre close to Art-rock is art-pop, blending pop with prog, with artists such as Kate Bush, Dalbello, kristeen young, david bowie, tori amos... The only site to use the tag "art-pop" is the excellent german prog site 'babyblaue prog seiten'. here is the list of the bands classified under this label : http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=list&genrecont=4&left=newReviews2&top=reviews they don't seem to make a difference between art-rock and art-pop.
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 18:31
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

King Crimson are one of the principal and quintessential examples for Art Rock, in my opinion. They've dedicated music, knowledge, sense, effort and spirit to many side of composition and of music exploration, however deep or however simple, however abstract or however concrete, over the entire years. Their meanins thus is the equivalent of many things and the intention of many directions. Being absolutely and fundamentally prog, they fit no more, no less that excelent in the Art Rock multitude of shapes, nuances and...et caetera.

(Robert Fripp himself is named various ShockedWink)

I wanted to say the exact same thing, word for word...but Ricochet came firstGeek






yeah, right!
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Points: 7659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 18:37
For me King Crimson has always been a very innovative and captivating progrock band, they were a kind of 'progrock chameleon'. But in order to do justice to progressive rock history I want King Crimson to be classified as a 'Classic Seventies Progrock Band', the category Art-rock sounds awful to me, King Crimson should not be in the same category as Supertramp and Uriah Heep ...Unhappy 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 02:08
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

For me King Crimson has always been a very innovative and captivating progrock band, they were a kind of 'progrock chameleon'. But in order to do justice to progressive rock history I want King Crimson to be classified as a 'Classic Seventies Progrock Band', the category Art-rock sounds awful to me, King Crimson should not be in the same category as Supertramp and Uriah Heep ...Unhappy 
 
I agree about Supertramp, they should be IMHO in Prog Related and Uriah Heep is close to an early form of Prog Metal.
 
This depends now in the Art Rock Team in hands of Raffaella and Micky who were part of almost 100% of the Symphonic cleaning process.
 
I don't like the Classic 70's Prog Rock, because IMHO sub-genres ashould be based in styles rather than iin regional or temporal reasons.
 
Hey, Supertramp could also be considered Classical 70's Progrock band according to a temporal definition, they released their debut in 1970, it was a Prog album, they have earned (Like it or not) the status of a Classic band that is included in almost evry Prog site......everything is subjective.
 
There must be two exceptions, one for the barely Prog bands and that's Prog Related and another one for the complex 100% bands that go beyond the limits of one sub-genre (Unless we want to create King Crimson Oriented, Gentle Giant Influenced and Mike Oldfield Oriented sub-genres as other sites do) and that's Art Rock.
 
Genesis....Pink Floyd.....Jethro Tull.....King Crimson, etc are all Classic 70's bands, but their musical characteristics places them in determined sub-genres, Genesis is Symphonic, Jethro is Folk/Symphonic, Pink Floyd IMO is Psyche/Space, etc.
 
Bands like Crimson and VDGG who defy the sub-genres should be together also.
 
BTW: I only wrote the Art Rock definition basred in the parameters given to me by the Collaborators after discussing it, this definition remained posted several weeks for approval until it was accepted.
 
I also felt uncomfortable with At Rock at the beginning, Sean and Mike must remember that I wanted too use the Various Genres category as home for this eclectic or ever changing bands, but the general opinion is that something as Various Genres sounded like a ssack to place anything, so reading the new tendencies of the Art Rock term I agreed with the change, specially because M@X had already created Prog Related.
 
Iván
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 23 2006 at 12:02
            
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 10:22
I was just clarifying that they are there because of the various genres theyve experimented with, but now that I look at it, they meet about 3-4 of the characteristics of Art Rock.
 
I am still pretty unfamiliar with the subgenres of progressive.  Up to now, I've basically just used Progressive Rock, Progressive Metal, Space Rock, and Exprerimental as classifications and Im not even sure that I fully grasped even those terms at the time.  I came here for educational purposes rather than to express my knowledge, so any help I could get would be great.
 
Before anyone asks, I am 16.
 


Edited by Cynic - October 23 2006 at 10:35
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 10:28
Well I think it maybe about time to unleash the beast known as... Hard Prog!
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 11:25
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

For me King Crimson has always been a very innovative and captivating progrock band, they were a kind of 'progrock chameleon'. But in order to do justice to progressive rock history I want King Crimson to be classified as a 'Classic Seventies Progrock Band', the category Art-rock sounds awful to me, King Crimson should not be in the same category as Supertramp and Uriah Heep ...[IMG]height=17 alt=Unhappy src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley6.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> 

    
That might applicable if they had stopped after "Red." The fact is that they kept going, and changing. Would you put "Discipline," or "The Power to Believe" in a category called 'Classic Seventies?'
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Points: 7659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 13:04

You are right about these Eighties and Nineties albums by King Crimson, Bhikkhu, but I still prefer the category Classic Seventies Prog Bands, simply because I have other ideas about the category Art-rock.
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