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richardh 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
 Posted: January 12 2017 at 06:12 |
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Interesting as Steven Wilson was interviewed by Darren Reddick not that long ago and went to great pain to explain the difference. I got the impression that he would never do just a remaster as didn't interest him at all. Also I'm not sure he was involved in doing the Trilogy remaster/remix at all , I think it was just the first couple of ELP studio releases. Amazon has wrongly suggested that he did the 2014 remaster of Brain Salad Surgery (I'm 99% sure it wasn't him) but then it's not the first time Amazon has got it's info wrong!
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 06:13 |
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We aren't talking about those kinds of repackaged, remixed and remastered editions. This thread is about the Ibiza style techno remixes of ELP (Re-Works) and Yes (Remixes). If you like to hear much loved classics butchered, sampled and sequenced to a four-to-the-floor disco beat with some inappropriate synth fx noises then even these are not a good place to start. The Yes one (by Virgil Howe calling himself "The Verge" ... which is verging on the ridiculous) is slightly better than the ELP one but they're both pretty dire.
Edited by Dean - January 12 2017 at 06:13 |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 06:15 |
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^ agreed
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 19944 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 07:25 |
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Sorry one more off topic. Yes, you're right Richard, the Trilogy one was by Jakko not Steven Wilson, my apologies. And thinking about it, that is kind of a remix (additional backing vocals in The Sheriff and making the percussion louder in the piano ending of the same song spring to mind). |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 09:52 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 10:59 |
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Proportionally or cumulatively? Like all cross-genre versions there is good and bad in all of them but regardless of the quality of the raw material the finished product has to stand up as a good example of the resulting genre of music. Prog reworkings of classical pieces have to be good pieces of Progressive Rock or the exercise is a waste studio time regardless of how the classical music world views them. Progressive Rock fans due to their eclectic nature and catholic tastes tend to be considerably more broadminded about other genres of music so are often more receptive to crossovers than say classic music fans so if one is drawn towards the IDM end of electronic music then it is quite possible to find such prog-techno remixes as something to be interested in ... as long as the released mix stands alone as good techno music. Unfortunately, neither of these do. While the source is decidedly not Prog, this I like: |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 13:31 |
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This is an example of that in my opinion.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 12 2017 at 16:24 |
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You are of course entitled to your opinion, but that isn't actually an opinion, it's an assumption, and as we know, assumptions are often wrong because they lack sufficient information to be a known fact. Opinions on the other hand are generally subjective so can be right for some people but not others.
No, I am saying that in my opinion (and this is a true subjective opinion) these two albums are particularly poor examples of techno remixes and they would be poor examples regardless of the source material being remixed. You like them, and that's fine, but don't get bent out of shape when other people don't find them to be quite as good as you do. Hell, I have an album of techno remixes of 1960s TV theme tunes that is immeasurable better than these and from a Prog perspective there are numerous Floyd techno and trance remixes out there that are also far better than the Re-works and Verge remixes (including some Floyd tracks that were reputedly remixed by The Orb). |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 05:16 |
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What's the difference between an opinion and an assumption on your view? It's not that opinions "have sufficient information to be a known fact" is it? For one, your following comment: "opinions on the other hand are generally subjective so can be right for some people but not others" wouldn't make much sense if opinions are characterized by "having sufficient information to be known facts."
That's not at all what was going on. I was just pointing out some observations about folks' opinions. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 06:31 |
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Of course they are different and they certainly are not synonyms. An opinion is a judgement formed on something that is not necessarily based upon facts or knowledge where an objective opinion is based on facts whereas a subjective opinion is not. However, an assumption is something that is stated without proof (i.e. without facts). An assumption differs from a subjective opinion because an assumption can either be true or false but not both (your assumption can be wrong) whereas a subjective opinion will always be true for the person making it (your subjective opinion is never wrong). Therefore your 'opinion' is an assumption because you do not know whether those people here who don't like your two examples of techno/prog crossovers actually like techno or techno-prog crossovers or not - you have assumed they do not without proof. If I (for example) like the Floyd techno remixes but not the ELP and Yes ones then any 'opinion' you have on my view of techno-prog remixes is wrong.
No, classical music fans would not be 'narrow minded and purism-oriented' if they liked rock and liked some classical/prog crossovers but not others, they would only be such if they didn't rock or didn't like all classical/rock crossovers. No one here has said they don't like all techno or all techno remixes of other genres.
Regardless of intent, that's not how it looks from here
 Edited by Dean - January 13 2017 at 06:34 |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 09:21 |
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Your distinctions are a complete friggin mess, not to mention that you're invoking the idea of proof contra falsificationism. But okay, taking your distinctions for how you're stating them, you're saying that my opinion is framed as if it's an "objective opinion," but since it wasn't based on facts, it was just an assumption. Two big problems though: (1) Where did I say anything about whether anyone likes any techno or techno-prog crossovers? Could you quote where I said something about that? (2) What are your grounds for saying that anything I said in this thread about musical assessments was based only on what people said in this thread?
Where is the idea that the people I'm talking about like some classical/prog crossovers but not others coming from? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 11:10 |
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I used what are essentially the dictionary definitions, so any mess is the result of my poorly worded explanations rather than what these words mean.
Okay then, clearly we have a huge misunderstanding here so please enlighten me - what is it you are saying exactly, and about whom, when you posted this then?
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JD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18372 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 11:21 |
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It was an interesting if not failed attempt to capitalize on a fad at the time. I agree that the 1000 versions of Fanfare weren't necessary. I picked up both CD's at a used CD shop in the Detroit area and have maybe listened to them twice. I would much rather listen to the various arrangements that the bands themselves did when playing live. I've said it before, bands like ELP, Yes and Peter Gabriel who constantly remade their own songs in concert were a refreshing listen in most cases. I saw Supertramp at Joe Louis arena many many years ago and they just played their songs note for note from the album. I found it kinda boring and thought if that's what I wanted to hear I could just play the album and hear better fidelity.
The "Remix" fad that you are indicating has happily been relegated to the the furthest annals of history. |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 13 2017 at 11:24 |
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I'll answer that, but hold on a minute--you're ignoring the questions I asked you. Are you saying that you simply assumed that I was making a claim that I wasn't making? Did you just assume that I said something about whether anyone likes any techno or techno-prog crossovers without me actually saying that?
And did you simply assume that I was only making comments based on what people have said in this thread, and not on other empirical evidence? Edited by Terrapin Station - January 13 2017 at 11:24 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 01:51 |
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No I didn't. I just responded to them differently.
I inferred rather than assumed but the end result is the same.
Nah, don't bother, I've lost interest in whatever the answer is.
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 08:25 |
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It wasn't something that you stated without proof (i.e. without facts), where it could be true or false but not both? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 10:25 |
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An inference is a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence or reasoning, therefore it was not an assumption formed without facts but an inference since there was evidence in what you said and how you said it, albeit incomplete evidence. However since this evidence (i.e the facts) here were scant then the reasoning was evidently flawed and my interpretation of what you implied was apparently false. Both assumed and inferred conclusions can produce the same result so can be true or false but not both.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 11:15 |
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Brain Salad Perjury is a crime against music.
I'm one of the few that wrote a review of this aberration that came to my hands by accident:
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 14 2017 at 11:15 |
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Terrapin Station
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2016 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 383 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 12:09 |
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So you were saying that my comment, "I don't think that's true, though--that prog fans tend to be more broadminded. You'd expect that, but they seem to be just as narrow-minded and purism-oriented as fans of any sort of music are," wasn't based on any empirical evidence or reasoning whatsoever? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 14 2017 at 12:49 |
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Hang on, are you now saying that what you originally claimed was an opinion is now an inference? Okay - whatever floats your boat.
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What do you think of ELP Re-Works & Yes Remixes?
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chopper wrote:
