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dennismoore
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 16:09 |
infandous wrote:
Yeah, what I've heard of BBT's English Electric (just part 1 so far) is basically what you say. I'm not sure I really get the appeal. Well, actually, the appeal is all too obvious I suppose, but it's so much like what has come before that I just can't get into it. It's strange, because a lot of the prog I love is very deeply rooted in the same approach that BBT, and even Wilson, are taking lately. I guess it's just that I was more interested in Wilson's more modern take on prog and psychedelic music in PTree than I am in this nostalgia trip of his. Though, conversely, I enjoy it more than the PTree stuff overall. Strange.
I guess with both BBT and Wilson, it's just TOO perfectly crafted. Too planned and calculated and clinical, as we've been saying. Maybe I'm just getting burned out or jaded about the "prog" genre, I don't know. Of course, last night I put on Back In The World Of Adventures and was reminded of why I still like prog so much. I just don't see anyone doing music with such feeling and emotion anymore (not even the Kings themselves, for that matter). 70's prog was about experiment, adventure, and discovery. Modern prog seems far more concerned with perfection and presentation. Both have their place and appeal, even to me, but I still think I far prefer the former over the latter.
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Hey dude, more than ever I realise that there is no way to define which prog or music in general works for a listener.
For me, Big Big Train is painfully derrivitave of Genesis and I really can't listen to them much, on the other hand, I LOVE
Glass Hammer's IF, though critics pan it for being too much like YES. I love Mystery as well, though some say its too much like RUSH.
In addition, I find Steven Wilson's recent stuff to be poorly immitated King Crimson, yet the prog world eats it up.
Its so funny that Wilson ripped our friend Roine as being derrivative of old prog. That is hypocracy, I say.
Its perhaps an endless debate about what makes music "accepted" or rejected by a listener. God bless the child who knows what music makes him happy.
Edited by dennismoore - March 21 2013 at 16:10
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zumacraig
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 18:49 |
Roland113 wrote:
Hmm, that made me realize something Craig and Darkshade, what do you guys really loathe musically? |
good question! i'm a
music fan, first and foremost. i've explored pretty much every genre to
some extent of the years...even some hip hop, rap and nu-country. that
being said, i'm notorious for being immediately reactive to hearing something
new. My friend that turned me on to
prog, god bless him, because pretty much everything he played for me I
initially hated…especially flower kings.
Something sticks with me though, and I always go back.
I guess one genre I
presently loathe is the solo singer/songwriter stuff. The market is saturated with these precious
fakers. Especially the indie
folk/country stuff. Ridiculously earnest
lyrics, pretentiousness, affected vocals, no irony. And there is no shortage of venues for
them. We have several in town. I go once in a while if it’s an artist I like
or a friend playing. The walls are
plastered with these gig posters of serious looking singers looking in the
distance as the sun sets behind them. I
hate that sh*t! J so, there you
go. A loathesome concert for me is any
singer/songwriter open mic night!
The irony of this whoel
thing is that I’m one of those dudes…acoustic guitar, vocals and wise beyond my
years lyrics J
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zumacraig
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 18:54 |
dennismoore wrote:
Roland113 wrote:
Ok, here's the other one that I've got:
For Dennis:
"The First Five Seconds of The Chicken Farmer Song . . . Looped" |
Actually, I could really go for that! 5 seconds would be enough for me.
What have you guys got against "happy"???
Your idea of a "new epic version of You Don't Know What You've Got" gives me nightmares. That would be enough
to give me "planetary destroying" rage.
@Infandous, excellent point about Morse/Wilson. They both bore me to to tears. I think Steven has done the dreary & helpless thing to death now, not to mention his horribly derivitave graphics which copycat the stuff Pink Floyd did on the Wall, but Wilson's graphics are far less interesting. I lost interest with Porcupine Tree with Fear Of A Blank Planet.
Its funny how Steven Wilson was critical of Roine. Steven is the one who now is a copycat of King Crimson and a parody of himself with his dark & bleak music on EVERY record he makes. Yuck. Hmm, where is my new Glass Hammer CD??? I am enjoying the new Mystery record as well...
The mad scientist in me says we should take halves of Wilson's & Morse's brains and put the 2 hemispheres together.
That would make some cool music.
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that PT album Darkwing always makes me think of Darkwing Duck!
so Mystery sounds like Rush? i need to check them out.
as far as morse goes, he's got some great ideas, but i'm tired of the epics.
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Roland113
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 20:12 |
Yeah, I'm kind of getting tired of the Neal penned eighty minute epics as well . . . there is nothing wrong with a ten to fifteen minute song.
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-------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob-------
I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms.
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 20:15 |
dennismoore wrote:
infandous wrote:
Yeah, what I've heard of BBT's English Electric (just part 1 so far) is basically what you say. I'm not sure I really get the appeal. Well, actually, the appeal is all too obvious I suppose, but it's so much like what has come before that I just can't get into it. It's strange, because a lot of the prog I love is very deeply rooted in the same approach that BBT, and even Wilson, are taking lately. I guess it's just that I was more interested in Wilson's more modern take on prog and psychedelic music in PTree than I am in this nostalgia trip of his. Though, conversely, I enjoy it more than the PTree stuff overall. Strange.
I guess with both BBT and Wilson, it's just TOO perfectly crafted. Too planned and calculated and clinical, as we've been saying. Maybe I'm just getting burned out or jaded about the "prog" genre, I don't know. Of course, last night I put on Back In The World Of Adventures and was reminded of why I still like prog so much. I just don't see anyone doing music with such feeling and emotion anymore (not even the Kings themselves, for that matter). 70's prog was about experiment, adventure, and discovery. Modern prog seems far more concerned with perfection and presentation. Both have their place and appeal, even to me, but I still think I far prefer the former over the latter.
|
Hey dude, more than ever I realise that there is no way to define which prog or music in general works for a listener.
For me, Big Big Train is painfully derrivitave of Genesis and I really can't listen to them much, on the other hand, I LOVE
Glass Hammer's IF, though critics pan it for being too much like YES. I love Mystery as well, though some say its too much like RUSH.
In addition, I find Steven Wilson's recent stuff to be poorly immitated King Crimson, yet the prog world eats it up.
Its so funny that Wilson ripped our friend Roine as being derrivative of old prog. That is hypocracy, I say.
Its perhaps an endless debate about what makes music "accepted" or rejected by a listener. God bless the child who knows what music makes him happy. |
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Dennis, something to the effect of 'who the heck is Wilson to go and replicate the Crimson meets Genesis vibe when he was just giving Stolt a large amount of grief for not being original enough. I'll be honest, The Raven sounds like a much bigger clone of 70's prog than anything done by The Flower Kings. I guess, despite my general ambivalence for Tomas Bodin he does not sound like a seventies wanna be, he is very much his own keyboard player.
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-------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob-------
I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms.
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darkshade
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 21:06 |
Roland113 wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of getting tired of the Neal penned eighty minute epics as well . . . there is nothing wrong with a ten to fifteen minute song.
|
That's the thing about Momentum, besides the giant epic, the shorter songs are some of his best shorter songs, especially Thoughts Part 5, Smoke and Mirrors, and the title track. Testimony 2 was full of shorter songs too. As for your question about what I don't like musically, I'm not into that hardcore "Screamo" music, or whatever it's called these days, most modern metal, country (the kind most people think is country), Frank Sinatra-type music, and dub-step for the most part.
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 07:39 |
I myself am not a big fan of BBT, I don't see the Genesis clone thing though - because if they were I would probably like them a lot more......The English Electric - just didn't grab me on first spin - but Wilson's Raven - grabbed me right on the first spin...I love the last two tracks...definately the best stuff Wilson has ever produced...mind you there is a lot I haven't heard so I may be wrong...
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 07:43 |
Roland113 wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of getting tired of the Neal penned eighty minute epics as well . . . there is nothing wrong with a ten to fifteen minute song.
|
You need to re-connect with the hard-core-progster deep in your brain......What you should have said is.... I'm getting tired of these short 80 minute epics....where the FOUR CD - MEGA EPIC - BRING IT ON......!!!!!
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infandous
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 08:52 |
Roland113 wrote:
dennismoore wrote:
infandous wrote:
Yeah, what I've heard of BBT's English Electric (just part 1 so far) is basically what you say. I'm not sure I really get the appeal. Well, actually, the appeal is all too obvious I suppose, but it's so much like what has come before that I just can't get into it. It's strange, because a lot of the prog I love is very deeply rooted in the same approach that BBT, and even Wilson, are taking lately. I guess it's just that I was more interested in Wilson's more modern take on prog and psychedelic music in PTree than I am in this nostalgia trip of his. Though, conversely, I enjoy it more than the PTree stuff overall. Strange.
I guess with both BBT and Wilson, it's just TOO perfectly crafted. Too planned and calculated and clinical, as we've been saying. Maybe I'm just getting burned out or jaded about the "prog" genre, I don't know. Of course, last night I put on Back In The World Of Adventures and was reminded of why I still like prog so much. I just don't see anyone doing music with such feeling and emotion anymore (not even the Kings themselves, for that matter). 70's prog was about experiment, adventure, and discovery. Modern prog seems far more concerned with perfection and presentation. Both have their place and appeal, even to me, but I still think I far prefer the former over the latter.
|
Hey dude, more than ever I realise that there is no way to define which prog or music in general works for a listener.
For me, Big Big Train is painfully derrivitave of Genesis and I really can't listen to them much, on the other hand, I LOVE
Glass Hammer's IF, though critics pan it for being too much like YES. I love Mystery as well, though some say its too much like RUSH.
In addition, I find Steven Wilson's recent stuff to be poorly immitated King Crimson, yet the prog world eats it up.
Its so funny that Wilson ripped our friend Roine as being derrivative of old prog. That is hypocracy, I say.
Its perhaps an endless debate about what makes music "accepted" or rejected by a listener. God bless the child who knows what music makes him happy. |
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Dennis, something to the effect of 'who the heck is Wilson to go and replicate the Crimson meets Genesis vibe when he was just giving Stolt a large amount of grief for not being original enough. I'll be honest, The Raven sounds like a much bigger clone of 70's prog than anything done by The Flower Kings. I guess, despite my general ambivalence for Tomas Bodin he does not sound like a seventies wanna be, he is very much his own keyboard player. |
Yes, Wilson did refer to TFK's and TA as "the death of progressive rock", in an interview 8 YEARS AGO!! Seriously, he apologized for the statements a couple of years ago, and has admitted that he likes prog and wants to make prog, using influences from the past. Let it go people. Personally, I would not say that Raven is no more, or less, derivative than any Flower Kings album. It actually has far more than just Crimson influence, and is much less derivative than any Glass Hammer album I've ever heard (and I actually like some of them).......or Big Big Train, for that matter. Still, it IS regressive. But damn good for being that. I understand not wanting to like Wilson, as I resisted for many years. When I finally just sat down and gave an objective listen to some PTree stuff, I couldn't help but be impressed. He certainly seems to be the guy that "real" prog fans love to hate. Having said all that, the constant dark, moody, and depressing lyrics and atmospheres have gotta a bit old. I wonder if he's even capable of writing positive, happy stuff? (actually, he is......the song The Rest Will Flow is quite upbeat with very upbeat lyrics..........but it's the only one in his entire catalog like that that I've heard) He does come off as rather arrogant, but considering he's been more successful than pretty much any modern prog artist on this site, I think he can be forgiven for thinking that he's doing something right.
Edited by infandous - March 22 2013 at 09:16
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infandous
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 08:58 |
darkshade wrote:
Roland113 wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of getting tired of the Neal penned eighty minute epics as well . . . there is nothing wrong with a ten to fifteen minute song.
|
That's the thing about Momentum, besides the giant epic, the shorter songs are some of his best shorter songs, especially Thoughts Part 5, Smoke and Mirrors, and the title track. Testimony 2 was full of shorter songs too.
As for your question about what I don't like musically, I'm not into that hardcore "Screamo" music, or whatever it's called these days, most modern metal, country (the kind most people think is country), Frank Sinatra-type music, and dub-step for the most part.
|
Technically, Testimony 2 was one big song, according to Neal
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 10:24 |
infandous wrote:
darkshade wrote:
Roland113 wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of getting tired of the Neal penned eighty minute epics as well . . . there is nothing wrong with a ten to fifteen minute song.
|
That's the thing about Momentum, besides the giant epic, the shorter songs are some of his best shorter songs, especially Thoughts Part 5, Smoke and Mirrors, and the title track. Testimony 2 was full of shorter songs too.
As for your question about what I don't like musically, I'm not into that hardcore "Screamo" music, or whatever it's called these days, most modern metal, country (the kind most people think is country), Frank Sinatra-type music, and dub-step for the most part.
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Technically, Testimony 2 was one big song, according to Neal
|
Well the tracks were grouped into 3 sections, and the songs flow into each other during each section, so I kinda thought of it (and T1) as groups of 20 minute songs divided into smaller tracks. Because of that, though, you can look at them as individual songs, and some work that way (as opposed to The Whirlwind, which I believe listening to the whole is stronger than listening to any individual track.)
Edited by darkshade - March 22 2013 at 10:25
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 10:46 |
All this Steven Wilson talk made me buy tickets to his show in Pittsburgh on April 30. Not really a consolation for not seeing the Flower Kings, but still something for me to look forward to.
I did discover that I can buy tickets JUST for the Flower Kings at Rosfest (well, them and whatever band plays before them). I don't think I can though, partly because of the date (have my son that weekend) and partly because of the price (with all fees and everything, nearly $70 for a ticket.........I'm paying $10 less than that for two of us to see Wilson). Plus, there are very few seats left, and what's left are not very good locations in the theater (though it's small so there aren't really any "bad" seats).
Edited by infandous - March 22 2013 at 10:46
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 14:58 |
zumacraig wrote:
I guess one genre I presently loathe is the solo singer/songwriter stuff. The market is saturated with these precious fakers. Especially the indie folk/country stuff. Ridiculously earnest lyrics, pretentiousness, |
Hmm, exactly how I see it. Especially the rise of the ultra-depressed sounding female singers who kinda whisper-moan suicide inducing whining, like Sarah McLachlan. The kinda stuff they play at Starbucks all day... And the musical arrangements are Neil Young simple-stupid....oops sorry Craig, I know you love ole Neil....
But yes, if I could sell a million records, I would sing that cow-crap with my guitar as well. Chicks LOVE that stuff.
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 15:14 |
infandous wrote:
Roland113 wrote:
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Dennis, something to the effect of 'who the heck is Wilson to go and replicate the Crimson meets Genesis vibe when he was just giving Stolt a large amount of grief for not being original enough. I'll be honest, The Raven sounds like a much bigger clone of 70's prog than anything done by The Flower Kings. I guess, despite my general ambivalence for Tomas Bodin he does not sound like a seventies wanna be, he is very much his own keyboard player. |
Yes, Wilson did refer to TFK's and TA as "the death of progressive rock", in an interview 8 YEARS AGO!! Seriously, he apologized for the statements a couple of years ago, and has admitted that he likes prog and wants to make prog, using influences from the past. Let it go people.
Personally, I would not say that Raven is no more, or less, derivative than any Flower Kings album. It actually has far more than just Crimson influence, and is much less derivative than any Glass Hammer album I've ever heard (and I actually like some of them).......or Big Big Train, for that matter. Still, it IS regressive. But damn good for being that.
I understand not wanting to like Wilson, as I resisted for many years. When I finally just sat down and gave an objective listen to some PTree stuff, I couldn't help but be impressed. He certainly seems to be the guy that "real" prog fans love to hate. Having said all that, the constant dark, moody, and depressing lyrics and atmospheres have gotta a bit old. I wonder if he's even capable of writing positive, happy stuff? (actually, he is......the song The Rest Will Flow is quite upbeat with very upbeat lyrics..........but it's the only one in his entire catalog like that that I've heard)
He does come off as rather arrogant, but considering he's been more successful than pretty much any modern prog artist on this site, I think he can be forgiven for thinking that he's doing something right.
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@Roland113: Great minds think alike is all I can say....
@Infandous: Re-read your post. You seem to be aggreeing with us than disagreeing, kinda confusing...
"Let it go people" WTF??? Dude, in the USA we have this thing called the 1st Ammendment. You've heard of it? 8 years or not, Wilson made a very strong statement and I think people should live with & by their words, and yeah I read his other statement which was hardly an apology or clarification. Plus there is an active thread about the matter AND we all love & support Roine and his lads whenever we can, so... Let the cards fall where they may, I say.
You say: "I understand not wanting to like Wilson..." I don't get the context here. Most of us love PT and suport his music. I have bought most of his records & DVDs and I have seen PT twice live, I am just tired of his same old theme
of teenage futility, since I pay $$$ for his stuff, I think its natural to voice an opinion... Lots of love here for SW, but he should be held accountable for doing the same crap over and over AND for being a copy-cat AFTER his very strong
judgement of other prog bands. Live by the sword, die by the sword, life's a beach right???
Still love ya though. You are one of the true kindred spirits here. I hope you enjoy Steven Wilson in concert. For me, he really shines live. The two PT concerts I saw were fantastic!
P.S. Do you have Glass Hammer - If?
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 15:27 |
Roland113 wrote:
I'll be honest, The Raven sounds like a much bigger clone of 70's prog than anything done by The Flower Kings. I guess, despite my general ambivalence for Tomas Bodin he does not sound like a seventies wanna be, he is very much his own keyboard player. |
Yes, I agree about TFK not being derrivative. For me some of their songs are too long winded of boring, but they are
refreshingly original as to the music they make in general. All bands have influences, that is a given. I don't care for Tomas' too many overly modulated keyboard patches, but the lad is original for sure! I enjoy his organ & piano pieces the best.
I have always enjoyed Steven Wilson's music, but he is hardly original. Waay too much head-bangin heavy-metal repetitive rythyms in PT stuff and too much King Crimson in his new stuff. Does that make it bad? No. I think overall, though, The Flower Kings are the more "true to themselves" band. I love both artists, so I have no axe to grind...
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 15:36 |
zumacraig wrote:
so Mystery sounds like Rush? i need to check them out.
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One Among The Living has one of the great vocal performances of all time, I say.... The music is pristinely recorded and scales up very well if played loud. Very dynamic and rewarding listening. To me they sound like nobody before. I like them a lot. The guitar player is some French-Canadian dude who writes,records & produces, that guy is a freekin genius.
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 15:53 |
And the singer is David Benoit. I don't remember listening to that album thinking it sounded like Rush. I will need to give it another listen.
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 16:07 |
rushfan4 wrote:
And the singer is David Benoit. I don't remember listening to that album thinking it sounded like Rush. I will need to give it another listen. |
Yeah, that's the knock on them I have read here at PA. I happen to love the combo of BD's voice with the guitar player's work. I have played it very loud at home and in the car. David's voice really shines at high volumes. Or maybe I just like to BLAST my music?
Have you heard the new RUSH-2112 5.1 mix?
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 16:24 |
dennismoore wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
And the singer is David Benoit. I don't remember listening to that album thinking it sounded like Rush. I will need to give it another listen. |
Yeah, that's the knock on them I have read here at PA. I happen to love the combo of BD's voice with the guitar player's work. I have played it very loud at home and in the car. David's voice really shines at high volumes. Or maybe I just like to BLAST my music?
Have you heard the new RUSH-2112 5.1 mix? |
I like David Benoit's voice and just for the record, I am not disagreeing with your assessment that that album sounded like Rush, I just don't remember thinking that when I listened to it, but I've not listened to it in a while. It will be interesting listening to it to see if it sounds like Rush or not.
I bought the new 2112 5.1 mix. I listened to the CD on my Blu-Ray player and it sounded really good, but when I put the Blu-Ray in my Blu-Ray player my Blu-Ray player froze up and nothing happened. I am going to have to try it again when I get the chance. I may have to figure out how to go on-line with my Blu-Ray player and run an update or something. I have never done that before, but I remember reading that that was something that needed to be done from time to time. I'm just not sure if I will be able to figure out how to do that or not.
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 18:01 |
Roland113 wrote:
dennismoore wrote:
infandous wrote:
Yeah, what I've heard of BBT's English Electric (just part 1 so far) is basically what you say. I'm not sure I really get the appeal. Well, actually, the appeal is all too obvious I suppose, but it's so much like what has come before that I just can't get into it. It's strange, because a lot of the prog I love is very deeply rooted in the same approach that BBT, and even Wilson, are taking lately. I guess it's just that I was more interested in Wilson's more modern take on prog and psychedelic music in PTree than I am in this nostalgia trip of his. Though, conversely, I enjoy it more than the PTree stuff overall. Strange.
I guess with both BBT and Wilson, it's just TOO perfectly crafted. Too planned and calculated and clinical, as we've been saying. Maybe I'm just getting burned out or jaded about the "prog" genre, I don't know. Of course, last night I put on Back In The World Of Adventures and was reminded of why I still like prog so much. I just don't see anyone doing music with such feeling and emotion anymore (not even the Kings themselves, for that matter). 70's prog was about experiment, adventure, and discovery. Modern prog seems far more concerned with perfection and presentation. Both have their place and appeal, even to me, but I still think I far prefer the former over the latter.
|
Hey dude, more than ever I realise that there is no way to define which prog or music in general works for a listener.
For me, Big Big Train is painfully derrivitave of Genesis and I really can't listen to them much, on the other hand, I LOVE
Glass Hammer's IF, though critics pan it for being too much like YES. I love Mystery as well, though some say its too much like RUSH.
In addition, I find Steven Wilson's recent stuff to be poorly immitated King Crimson, yet the prog world eats it up.
Its so funny that Wilson ripped our friend Roine as being derrivative of old prog. That is hypocracy, I say.
Its perhaps an endless debate about what makes music "accepted" or rejected by a listener. God bless the child who knows what music makes him happy. |
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Dennis, something to the effect of 'who the heck is Wilson to go and replicate the Crimson meets Genesis vibe when he was just giving Stolt a large amount of grief for not being original enough. I'll be honest, The Raven sounds like a much bigger clone of 70's prog than anything done by The Flower Kings. I guess, despite my general ambivalence for Tomas Bodin he does not sound like a seventies wanna be, he is very much his own keyboard player. |
totally. the more i listen to TFK the more i find them to really be their own band. maybe some similar 'sounds' as the 70s, but definitely an original symphonic prog band, as far as i'm concerned.
i'm curious about your Tomas ambivalence . thoughts on Lalle Larsson? |
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Stardust we are. -Roine Stolt
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