Is Boston Prog-Related? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Philéas

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Posted: December 03 2008 at 15:44

In response to the poll: Noooooooooo way.

rogerthat

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Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:21

Mandrakeroot wrote:

jammun wrote:

Next up, Scorpions

Scorpions: NO!

Judas Priest: NO... But sure have produced two Prog albums!

Um, Lonesome Crow and Fly To The Rainbow, especially the former, have quite a lot of prog elements, perhaps more so than Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult, who are on the archives. Not that I want to see either - JP or Scorpions - on the archives because I honestly don't think prog-related is a very good idea. Everyone would be familiar with the bands I mentioned unless he/she was living under a rock or something, so if prog heads exploring new horizons is the idea, it is not served by adding well known bands. And again, if you add obscure bands with a tenuous connection to prog, the obvious question will be what they are doing here. Just my two cents!

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Posted: December 01 2008 at 05:37

jammun wrote:

Next up, Scorpions

Uhm... With Judas priest (for 'Rockarolla' and 'Sad Wings Of Destiny') and Saxon (for 'Saxon')...

Boston is a borderline band between Prog Related and AOR... But sure is not a band for this site because no Boston's song have Prog sentiment.

For me...:

Boston: NO!

Scorpions: NO!

Judas Priest: NO... But sure have produced two Prog albums!

Saxon: Their 1st album is Prog... But for the rest of career... NO!

these are 4 bands that someone could also be argued that are PR (and may even be) but that does not go well for a site like PA!

Intruder

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Posted: December 01 2008 at 04:42

Boston is to Yes as the Rasberries are to the Beatles....Kansas is to Genesis as Poco is to CSNY.....Foreigner is to Led Zeppelin as Billy Joel is to Bob Dylan.

There are acts that mine Top 40 gold by bending popular sounds and styles into a shiny package suitable for that steady selling 12-24 age bracket....corporate rock! Boston is the Yes of corporate rock just as Kansas is its Genesis and Foreigner its Led Zep. Of course this was 30 years ago....I really couldn't tell you what goes on in the Top 40 these days.

I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....

Epignosis

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:44

Tapfret wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Since when was this thread about Thanksgiving? LOL

The Pilgrims landed near Boston...DUH!!!! LOL

"People livin' in competition
All I want is to have my piece of pie-hiiiiii!"

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Tapfret

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:42

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Since when was this thread about Thanksgiving? LOL

The Pilgrims landed near Boston...DUH!!!! LOL

Which begs the question...was Plymouth Rock prog related or merely an album oriented rock?

Edited by Tapfret - November 29 2008 at 19:44

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:39

King By-Tor wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan, you missed my point in quoting the list. My point was that "AOR" is about as meaningless a category as "Prog Related."

Then lets stop making it grow out of control with barely related bands that shouldn't be here.

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

Sure, I can live with that.

Oh, one more thing- I hope you have a pleasant Thanksgiving (if you celebrated it Thursday in Peru- I know Canadians don't Smile

It's kind of an American thing, man LOL

Is it because everyone else in the world are a bunch of ingrates, or because we here in America are only grateful for what we have one lousy day a year? LOL

Dude, Thanksgiving is about Settlers and the Pilgrims, not literally "being thankful" - which is why AMERICANS who settled in AMERICA celebrate it LOL

Exactly. We Native Americans have nothing to do with it. Ouch

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:13

Since when was this thread about Thanksgiving? LOL

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:10

Epignosis wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

Sure, I can live with that.

Oh, one more thing- I hope you have a pleasant Thanksgiving (if you celebrated it Thursday in Peru- I know Canadians don't Smile

It's kind of an American thing, man LOL

Is it because everyone else in the world are a bunch of ingrates, or because we here in America are only grateful for what we have one lousy day a year? LOL

Dude, Thanksgiving is about Settlers and the Pilgrims, not literally "being thankful" - which is why AMERICANS who settled in AMERICA celebrate it LOL

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 16:54

Tony R wrote:

I think you missed the show, Tony. Wink

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Tony R

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 16:45

Epignosis

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 14:46

King By-Tor wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

Sure, I can live with that.

Oh, one more thing- I hope you have a pleasant Thanksgiving (if you celebrated it Thursday in Peru- I know Canadians don't Smile

It's kind of an American thing, man LOL

Is it because everyone else in the world are a bunch of ingrates, or because we here in America are only grateful for what we have one lousy day a year? LOL

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 12:55

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

Sure, I can live with that.

Oh, one more thing- I hope you have a pleasant Thanksgiving (if you celebrated it Thursday in Peru- I know Canadians don't Smile

It's kind of an American thing, man LOL

Epignosis

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 12:41

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

Sure, I can live with that.

Oh, one more thing- I hope you have a pleasant Thanksgiving (if you celebrated it Thursday in Peru- I know Canadians don't Smile

).

Edited by Epignosis - November 29 2008 at 12:43

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 11:58

BTW: Apology accepted

Iván

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Posted: November 29 2008 at 08:31

Ivan, you missed my point in quoting the list. My point was that "AOR" is about as meaningless a category as "Prog Related."

The more I read Peter's extended post, the more I realize he is articulating something I've had in my gut for a long time, but never could put my finger on, and this little poll confirms: Prog Related is:

Peter wrote:

nothing but trouble, and revisionist cherry-picking of favoured rock artists by individuals, largely according to their tastes, much along the lines of "I'm a prog fan, so the other old rock I like must be related to prog..."

That said, I suppose I too will bow out. Thanks, Peter.

PS- Ivan, once again, I'm sorry if my verbiage comes across as abrasive.

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WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:08

Peter wrote:

I don't much care one way or another about Boston's addition or omission...

Same here.

...but I disagree with your premise here, WinterLight. The above-indicated 'conditions" are linked by the word "OR'" not "and." The use of "or" indicates that fulfilling any one of the three possible conditions for admission is sufficient.

Observe that my objection was to the use of the phrase "perfect fit." Indeed, you are quite correct that satisfaction of any of the three disjuncts would satisfy the given definition; however, perfect fit really does connote that all three disjuncts are satisfied. Your confusion may stem from the distinction between the object language and metalanguage--but let's face it: we're not exactly aiming for logical rigor on the forum.

Furthermore, fulfilling all three conditions would be logically impossible anyway. Consider the first two conditions: a band cannot have "received clear musical influences" (from) prog, and yet have also been "musically influential to the development of Progressive Pock."

Don't see how the one condition precludes the other. Surely, Dream Theater is a modern counterexample. Moreover, I imagine that most of the seminal prog bands "fed" off each other's creative development.

Your argument with Epignosis in this manner thus has no logical merit. It seems you did not read those conditions very carefully.

I'm afraid that you've jumped the gun here, my friend. See my above remarks for an explanation.

Simply put, OR does not mean AND.

Actually, when viewed as logical constants neither "or" nor "and" have a literal meaning, at least until one defines the semantics for a given theory. What you really mean to say is that the conventional valuations for "or" and "and" are not identical, i.e. they are distinct Boolean-valued functions. Even so, I'm still not sure what "or" or "and", in particular the latter, really denotes.

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Posted: November 28 2008 at 21:26

Epignosis wrote:

I was wondering when you might pop in, Ivan. And no. Not "'nuff said." Far from it.

They have been rejected ten times...again...Nuff said

"Prog-Related" is a nonsense category, then.

Prog Related is perfectlly designed, Boston doesn't influence anybody, is not important for Prog and the argument that they are influenced by soome prog band is at least up to debate.

Plus the last part is clear...IT'S EXCEPTIIONAL, we have tio evaluate if the band is a contribution to Prog, and Boston is not.

So nebulous is its definition, that the likes of Journey, Metallica, and Blue Oyster Cult make the grade but Boston, with so many progressive guitar arrangements and keyboard passages

Bands are accepted by their own meruits, I don't agree witth some you mention and I believe it's a mistake, but a mistake doesn't justify another mistake.

(if Emerson had written "Foreplay" or "Get Organ-ized," I'm certain it would be another hailed credit to his catelogue) is passed by because they're played a lot on the radio?

But he didn't wrote it, it was Boston a song or two barely related to Prog don't justify an inclusion.

BTW: More popular bands than Boston with as least the same airplay like STYX, ELO, Queen, Supertramp and even Kansas are here, Dark Side of the Moon was the best sold album of history for several years and is respected, so your argument about popularity makes water.

Ridiculous.

Ridiculous is the desperation to add a barely related band to a prog site, a band that will contribute in nothing to the knowledge of Prog, focus in real Prog bands.

Ivan, your comment that "other Prog sites consider AOR as Prog Related...We don't" is patent and utter foolishness. To quote you, "please." Refer to this:

http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/listoftheday/84689/the-top-25-aor-bands-of-the-1970s-1980s

In first place i will ask you to avoid offensive qualifications like Foolish to other person's argument, I respect you, I demand the same treatment

Then I would recommend you to make a research before talking, Proggnosis for example has a Prog sub-genre called AOR:

COUNTRY GENRE-subgenre-style ARTIST   (#Listed)
  (click to view Artist page)

USA Prog Related - AOR - General Boston  (6)

http://www.proggnosis.com/ProGGnosisDBSearch.asp

WE DON'T:G SUB-GENRES:

Canterbury Scene
Crossover Prog
Eclectic Prog
Experimental/Post Metal
Heavy Prog
Indo-Prog/Raga Rock
Italian Symphonic Prog
Jazz Rock/Fusion
Krautrock
Neo-Progressive
Post Rock/Math Rock
Prog Folk
Progressive Electronic
Progressive Metal
Psychedelic/Space Rock
RIO/Avant-Prog
Symphonic Prog
Tech/Extreme Prog Metal
Zeuhl
Various Genres/Artists
Prog Related
Proto-Prog

http://www.progarchives.com/

They can accept Boston because they believe AOR is Prog, we don't have that category so we don't believe AOR = BOSTON is Prog, so before saying foolish...READ AND RESEARCH.

Now to the list you quote, that list is crap, I give them the same credibility than I give to yahoo Music.

In first place, Genesis never made AOR, it was simple and pure POP during the three men era

Kansas had one or two AOR songs, but also pure Prog material and in more amount, only ignorants that have heard this two tracks exclusively, qualify them as AOR.

STYX was an AOR band, but is added here because of their first three albums

Journey is AOR but simultaneously has Jazzy leanings
Supertramp is anything but AOR, closer to Classic Rock, Light Prog and even Pop than to AOR?

But read what they say about Boston IN THE SITE YOU QUOTED:

Boston: Unlike Supertramp, Boston defined AOR by design. Tom Scholz was a tech wiz and a perfectionist who set out to record the perfect rock album. The self-titled debut album took years and when it was done it took years for people to tire of it, as it continued to sell and excite long past most albums’ expiration date.

It's the site you quote, and repeats what I said without even having read it.

And do take note of #1, which is a new addition here under what? Not "Prog-Related," but "Crossover Prog."

Yes, and also Kansas is in Symphonic, but Kansas released:

Kansas
Song For America
Masque
Leftoverture
Point of Know Return
Monolith
Two for the Show.

This proves the list is written probably by somebody who onlly heard Dust in the Wind and believes that's all.

The day Boston gets such number of great Prog Releases, call me.

Epignosis wrote:

Gee, if Justin Timberlake had been a member of Yes in the 1990s, I don't doubt that we'd have seen some really weird stuff included here.

Gee, if the martians had sex with earth people there would be green children.

What in hell has Justin Timberlake has to do here? Not more than the horny martians.

I'm out of here, won't get angry for nothing.

Iván has left the building.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2008 at 22:17

Epignosis

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Posted: November 28 2008 at 20:53

Atavachron wrote:

^ I don't doubt it, if his material was related to prog

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Posted: November 28 2008 at 20:51

^ I don't doubt it, if his material was related to prog

Poll Question: Is Boston Prog-Related? Check Yes or No.
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	10	[30.30%]
No	23	[69.70%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted